Organic no till system ?

[jonnyjon]

Not if you are direct drilling

Is take all not a problem in no till @Simon C ?

 

[Simon C]

Is take all not a problem in no till @Simon C ?

Take All is a symptom of poor soil biology, no-till allows the biology to recover.

 

[jonnyjon]

Interesting, the only seed treatments I've used this cropping year are for take all, was hoping not to use any in the future so that is encouraging

 

[Simon C]

Interesting, the only seed treatments I've used this cropping year are for take all, was hoping not to use any in the future so that is encouraging

That's right, latitude will be upsetting your soil biology too.

 

[Clive]

Interesting, the only seed treatments I've used this cropping year are for take all, was hoping not to use any in the future so that is encouraging

Yes stop using that rubbish !

 

[jonnyjon]

Yes stop using that rubbish !

I intend to, it will be hss from now on, fed up having to special order undressed seed and pay a ransom for it, being told they won't guarantee it if it's not dressed. A load of sh1te

 

[Neddy flanders]

@Simon C how you can miraculously transform soil biology to replace latitude without coming a cropper in your first year?

@Clive it could work. chameleon drill would do it.

 

[ajd132]

@Simon C how you can miraculously transform soil biology to replace latitude without coming a cropper in your first year?

@Clive it could work. chameleon drill would do it.

Inter row hoeing does work to a point but isn’t any kind of silver bullet, Still a lot of weeds left behind. It is something we have tried and will probably do on a bigger scale in the future. It won’t work with residue very well though which many seem to be overlooking, we farm next to John Pawsey and quite a lot of cultivation goes into his fields, the chameleon or any other hoe would struggle in our cover crop or stripper header fields.

 

[Clive]

@Simon C how you can miraculously transform soil biology to replace latitude without coming a cropper in your first year?

@Clive it could work. chameleon drill would do it.

you stop growing second wheats until your soil is good enough to grow them - I'm just staring to look at 2nd cereals again after 10 yrs no till using a cover crop "break" - there is very little need for a rotation with 2nd cereals in it anyway really, you're only chasing gross output because of fc structure usually

Don't think the Chameleon is the right tool for it - my aim would be not to destroy the under story crop but just keep it at low level, a hoe won't go through the thickness of nutrient crop Im thinking of. small strimmer heads is what I need in cowls that protect crop and wildlife either mounted and steered like a hoe or individual "small robots"

 

[Clive]

Inter row hoeing does work to a point but isn’t any kind of silver bullet, Still a lot of weeds left behind. It is something we have tried and will probably do on a bigger scale in the future. It won’t work with residue very well though which many seem to be overlooking, we farm next to John Pawsey and quite a lot of cultivation goes into his fields, the chameleon or any other hoe would struggle in our cover crop or stripper header fields.

those "weeds" are diversity, intercropping, companion crops, a move away from mono cropping which many think of as the holy grail ......... why remove them ? that's how we have been conditioned to think but is it correct ?

How about instead we design the weed population to complement the cash crop, supplying N etc and then just find a way to hold them at a level where they don't compete ?

 

[Clive]

I intend to, it will be hss from now on, fed up having to special order undressed seed and pay a ransom for it, being told they won't guarantee it if it's not dressed. A load of sh1te

the single simplest input to stop using is seed dressing - get the seed tested and have a proper rotation and you're not taking any risks doing so

 

[hendrebc]

those "weeds" are diversity, intercropping, companion crops, a move away from mono cropping which many think of as the holy grail ......... why remove them ? that's how we have been conditioned to think but is it correct ?

How about instead we design the weed population to complement the cash crop, supplying N etc and then just find a way to hold them at a level where they don't compete ?

Would a taller wheat variety work? If it grows say 4 foot tall it would be above any weeds and you could just run the combine high enough to cut the wheat and leave the weeds were they are?
Depending on what weeds grow in it of course. Wouldn't work if the weeds grow as tall.

 

[ajd132]

those "weeds" are diversity, intercropping, companion crops, a move away from mono cropping which many think of as the holy grail ......... why remove them ? that's how we have been conditioned to think but is it correct ?

How about instead we design the weed population to complement the cash crop, supplying N etc and then just find a way to hold them at a level where they don't compete ?

Absolutely, but that is much easier said than done. I don’t know how you design charlock out of a soil...!

 

[Clive]

Would a taller wheat variety work? If it grows say 4 foot tall it would be above any weeds and you could just run the combine high enough to cut the wheat and leave the weeds were they are?
Depending on what weeds grow in it of course. Wouldn't work if the weeds grow as tall.

its not just about the mechanics of harvest - you don't want competition with the cash crop for light etc or you will loose yield. I also believe that constant pruning stimulates plants to make soil biology work harder, there has been some really interesting research in this area

 

[Clive]

Absolutely, but that is much easier said than done. I don’t know how you design charlock out of a soil...!

you can't but you can keep it at a level where its not a problem maybe ?? I think if you can engineer a good enough understory full of species that are beneficial it might maybe suppress a lot of the stuff you don't want

 

[Richard III]

you can't but you can keep it at a level where its not a problem maybe ?? I think if you can engineer a good enough understory full of species that are beneficial it might maybe suppress a lot of the stuff you don't want

I like your idea, I think there may be an issue with establishing a cash crop though. For example, wheat drilled into living clover really struggles to get going initially. If you could put nutrition in the seed trench, this might help some and your strimming machine could be used just above ground level at drilling time to help I suppose.

 

[Clive]

I like your idea, I think there may be an issue with establishing a cash crop though. For example, wheat drilled into living clover really struggles to get going initially. If you could put nutrition in the seed trench, this might help some and your strimming machine could be used just above ground level at drilling time to help I suppose.

Nutrition would have to be organic though which complicates ! maybe if it was grazed hard over winter on mown very short that would help

 

[Boydvalley]

One of the problems of using legumes to build fertility is that you have to kill them or use an annual legume to release the nitrogen they have built up. Clover will just use its nitrogen and become very competitive not releasing any to the cash crop. A well rooted cover crop will soak up most of the available nutrients before the crop, you are basically growing 2 crops until harvest and yields will be very low however hard you hit the companion crop.
Mowing and hoeing are fine but weather conditions will mean once every few years it won’t go right and the seed bank will get topped up again.
I’ve often thought Organic production with one permitted application of glyphosate per year would be a very sustainable ecologically friendly production system. Doesn’t help the OP though. Interesting thread

 

[Neddy flanders]

the single simplest input to stop using is seed dressing - get the seed tested and have a proper rotation and you're not taking any risks doing so

The problem is the proper rotation has just gone out the window. There are not enough break crop alternatives to losing OSr so I am forced to second cereals to lower break area to 33%

 

[JD6920s]

you stop growing second wheats until your soil is good enough to grow them - I'm just staring to look at 2nd cereals again after 10 yrs no till using a cover crop "break" - there is very little need for a rotation with 2nd cereals in it anyway really, you're only chasing gross output because of fc structure usually

Don't think the Chameleon is the right tool for it - my aim would be not to destroy the under story crop but just keep it at low level, a hoe won't go through the thickness of nutrient crop Im thinking of. small strimmer heads is what I need in cowls that protect crop and wildlife either mounted and steered like a hoe or individual "small robots"

Really, 10 years of no till already?
I didn’t realise you’d been at it that long!