Organic weed control ideas

[Pasty]

For the record I'm not organic at the moment. But I do like the idea of farming without chems as far as possible. I'm all grass at the moment. Sheep and poultry with a few goats who are supposed to be a mobile weed crew. They do achieve this for the 15 seconds they stay in the field I put them in......

Although someone will, please don't bother with the spray option. I'm not giving in. Yet.

My problems are:

Creeping thistle. Pretty bad in places due to years of 'prairie' grazing before I took on the place and lack of any effort to control them. My solution is hard mowing several times a year which has started this year. A lot of folk say July or August this or that but my research seems to suggest that if you keep blatting them, they don't like it. I think I am seeing progress as areas mown tight earlier on are much thinner for thistle now. As I'm under-stocked at the mo, this is not an issue.

Spear thistle. I keep whacking them in July and they keep coming back. They are specific plants so wouldn't take much to deal with them one by one. Any ideas? Currently limited to one field which I am about to top before they flower. Did it with a brush cutter last year but maybe too late.

Nettle. High ground has been engulfed. It's where the sheep have gone every night for 10-15 years so it's no surprise that this is the most fertile ground. Clearly low on forage value although a small amount may be desirable if they eat them at wilted stage. Current strategy is to mow and mow. Last time they were up to the top of the cab!

Docks. Don't mind a few and they some benefit to pastures. Have done some serious topping this year but think I left it too late. At what stage is a Dock seed viable once knocked off? They go from green to brown. If you top them off when the seeds are green, do they continue to develop? I gather that the seeds cannot survive a chicken's gut so that will form part of the long term plan.

I think that's about it. I have buttercup but it's pretty and a bit of heavy stocking seems to knock it back fairly well for a year or 2.

Edit: Bracken. Up in the field on the hill. It's covered in it. I have attacked it in places in previous years and it has not come back strongly, if at all. Just a case of letting it grow and then whacking it? Key seems to be to disrupt the layer of dead matter on the deck by harrow or Swan Vestas.

Appreciate any comments on the above from other farmers not convinced by 'Science'.

 

[multi power]

Spear thistles easy to remove with a lazy dog

 

[Pasty]

Spear thistles easy to remove with a lazy dog

Problem is mine don't look like the ones on the interweb. Maybe I'll take a photo in a min.

 

[neilo]

Most of those weeds, with the exception of spear thistles, have massive root systems and you won't get rid of them by topping or mowing. You will keep a bit of a lid on them, sort of, but will burn a lot of fossil fuels whilst doing so. Is that really better?

Like most, I don't like spraying more than necessary (more due to cost than any evangelical belief), but sometimes it is prudent to use them to knock the problem back, at least to the point where management controls can keep in top of it.
There, I've said it.

 

[GrannyAching]

Almost everything , cut, cut and cut.

You can do docks this way but you probably need to cut them really often to weaken the roots. The advice I had was to remove the flower stalks because even the really green/immature seeds have some viability. Docks are also soul destroying because the seed bank is always huge and viable for several tens of years. You could try diffing docks but you need everything out and the roots are really deep or maybe a weed burner and do them really often compared with the other stuf you are cutting.

 

[Pasty]

Most of those weeds, with the exception of spear thistles, have massive root systems and you won't get rid of them by topping or mowing. You will keep a bit of a lid on them, sort of, but will burn a lot of fossil fuels whilst doing so. Is that really better?

Like most, I don't like spraying more than necessary (more due to cost than any evangelical belief), but sometimes it is prudent to use them to knock the problem back, at least to the point where management controls can keep in top of it.
There, I've said it.

I knew someone would have to say it. This is an anti-science thread so proper farmers are not allowed in. When is the next full moon by the way?

 

[multi power]

I knew someone would have to say it. This is an anti-science thread so proper farmers are not allowed in. When is the next full moon by the way?

To be honest he is correct, and if you want to go organic in the future you should spray them now
Personally I'd compromise and get a weed wiper, only use a very small amount of chemical

 

[Pasty]

Almost everything , cut, cut and cut.

You can do docks this way but you probably need to cut them really often to weaken the roots. The advice I had was to remove the flower stalks because even the really green/immature seeds have some viability. Docks are also soul destroying because the seed bank is always huge and viable for several tens of years. You could try diffing docks but you need everything out and the roots are really deep or maybe a weed burner and do them really often compared with the other stuf you are cutting.

I'm not stressed by docks as long as they are in reasonable numbers. They have some grazing value and health value and also I think the deep tap roots are possibly beneficial for the grass. Thistle I'm not keen on although I appreciate they have some wildlife value. But allowing that to happen also allows rapid spread which is a conundrum for even the most eco sensitive farmers.

With Docks I think you just have to accept that you are never going to beat them, even with chems, you are only ever knocking them back. Good management to me would be trying to knock back young plants and stop them setting seed.

 

[jondear]

Spear thistles easy to remove with a lazy dog

Spear thistle .?I think in Devon we call them Boredashlses!

 

[Pasty]

To be honest he is correct, and if you want to go organic in the future you should spray them now
Personally I'd compromise and get a weed wiper, only use a very small amount of chemical

Correct how though? In order to be termed a 'good farmer' by your neighbours because your grass fields have not one living thing that you didn't plant in there?

If I sprayed off everything now and went organic, how long would I have before I needed to come out of organic and spray again? That is failing before you start in my view.

 

[Pasty]

Spear thistle .?I think in Devon we call them Boredashlses!

Grandad just said dashles and we spent many an hour thrashing them.

 

[multi power]

Correct how though? In order to be termed a 'good farmer' by your neighbours because your grass fields have not one living thing that you didn't plant in there?

If I sprayed off everything now and went organic, how long would I have before I needed to come out of organic and spray again? That is failing before you start in my view.

You wouldn't have to come out of organic and spray ever again, just need to keep on top of any appear

 

[multi power]

@Pasty I won't mention spraying again

 

[jondear]

That's obviously a generation thing .I remember by grandad saying exactly the same thing .When a kid first learning to drive a tractor .One with no cab an Alice b we would use a old finger bar mower called a bustatis I think .Cut in June to soon .cut in July will surely die !Haven't sprayed thistles for 40 years I reckon no worse now than then .

 

[Pasty]

@Pasty I won't mention spraying again

You must never even think of it again.

Seriously. I read a lot of threads of a similar ilk and they usually go the same way. Just spray. I don't want to. You are a massive gay. I don't think I am but maybe I am but I still don't want to. Subtle comment from organic proponent which is mulled and discussed given posting history on board with no firm conclusion other than a bit of point scoring. You are still a gay. OK, I won't be gay and I'll spray. Say no to gay, say yes to spray. But is it gay to spray? FWi says it's all science. Is that gay? What if you were actually gay. Does that mean you can't spray?

Now this has become a thread about sexuality and how that would affect your decision on spraying. See how things can go off course? Well I'm standing up. I'm not gay and I don't want to spray. Suck on that one 2017.

 

[Pasty]

You wouldn't have to come out of organic and spray ever again, just need to keep on top of any appear

So why can't you get them to that level with a bit of elbow grease and carry on from there?

 

[exmoor dave]

Spear thistles- dig out with a mattock

Creeping thistles- dad has spent alot of his 78yrs pulling them out by hand (the idea being you get a bit of root out with each one), to be fair it does work, it's a tremendous amount of work though.

Docks...... sheep will often graze them in to submission if keep is tight early on.
Pulling them sometimes works.

Nettles- cattle will sometimes graze them completely, but there's no pattern to it, apart from prehaps if they get tight for grazing, if there's plenty of grass they sometimes still raze the nettles to the ground, I reckon to get at either a certain mineral or prehaps for extra protein (nettles are apparently high in protein).
Could cut with a scythe/hook/ mower or petrol hedge trimmer, i.e something that leaves them whole so not a topper. Once wilted stock often eat them.

Bracken, rolling, buising cutting can knock it back if done twice a year..... year after year.
Sometimes you get phenomenonal progress on just one pass, other times no progress on years of work.
IMO better to bite the bullet and spray or wipe it, very worth it!


As fun as burning bracken is......&I've burnt abit over the years I've never seen any evidence it checks the weed, if anything it let's enough light in to let even more bracken plants up!
I think the theory is that frost can get to the root system but I've not seen it happen here in the sunny SW.

another option for bracken is to use pigs

 

[Pasty]

Spear thistles- dig out with a mattock

Creeping thistles- dad has spent alot of his 78yrs pulling them out by hand (the idea being you get a bit of root out with each one), to be fair it does work, it's a tremendous amount of work though.

Docks...... sheep will often graze them in to submission if keep is tight early on.
Pulling them sometimes works.

Nettles- cattle will sometimes graze them completely, but there's no pattern to it, apart from prehaps if they get tight for grazing, if there's plenty of grass they sometimes still raze the nettles to the ground, I reckon to get at either a certain mineral or prehaps for extra protein (nettles are apparently high in protein).
Could cut with a scythe/hook/ mower or petrol hedge trimmer, i.e something that leaves them whole so not a topper. Once wilted stock often eat them.

Bracken, rolling, buising cutting can knock it back if done twice a year..... year after year.
Sometimes you get phenomenonal progress on just one pass, other times no progress on years of work.
IMO better to bite the bullet and spray or wipe it, very worth it!

Arggh. There's that spray thing again. I'm not spraying the bracken. It's the only field where we have that issue and it's odd because it's like someone took 7 acres of Dartmoor, lifted it with a chopper and dumped it in South Devon. sh!t, that is a big hornet. /OT.

It's a stunning site and I think RIGS so maybe restricted on what we can pour on it. Anyway, we manually whacked about an acre last year and it's looking lovely now. Grassland with the odd fern which can be snipped. So my mission this year is just to get in there with the brush cutter and knock the crap out of it. Time will tell if I have wasted mine. Good workout
if nothing else. I think it only spores every 12 years or something so you maybe have plenty of time in between to knock it back manually.

I've got a hornet in the house that is like a frikking hercules! Maybe a queen? Surely they would have nested by now? Quite impressive.

Anyway. I think my tactic for creeping thistle is just to mow the crap out of it and regard that as non grazing land. It's in patches so that will work. I think the nettle will fold quite easily with regular mowing. It's just been let to go and is 6' at least in places. Impressive again.

 

[7610 super q]

The usual stuff gets trotted out...
Docks = "get some pigs"
Thistles = " cut them late in the year, they won't come again"
Cooch = " Plough it, and spend all summer cultivating it "

TBH, I'd just spray it and have a few years piece and quiet.

 

[Pasty]

There it is again. Don't mention spray, I'm not doing it under any circumstances.............................. Spray it.

There is no hope for UK farming. Constipation of imagination.

What has gone wrong? Has subsidy caused this? Can we no longer manage the land without paying the dirty little shitweasel chem salesman his due? They have got us. Truly got us. UK farming is brain dead and needs a revolution.