Organic weed control ideas

Pasty

Member
Location
Devon
What's that?
I mean leaving all the gates open. Down here it's mostly small fields from 2-10ac generally and I know a few chaps who just let the stock roam as they see fit. So they do and they pick what they like out of every sward and leave the rest. Any bramble bush gets a foot wider every year. Every nettle, thistle and bracken patch gets a little bigger every year until you end up with places they just don't bother going every year. Then it needs major action to get it back into shape. I think the reason is probably lack of water in all fields but many of them have almost ready made mob grazing set ups with a few fields maybe needing halfing now and again. I assume the sub is worth more to them than actually maximising forage / stock performance.
 

foobar

Member
Location
South Wales
A lazy dog (for thistles, and docks if you can be bothered), mob grazing, cut the bracken - as soon as the majority of the fronds have unfolded, repeat 3 times in the first year, less in subsequent years (cutting once a year is not enough to deplete the energy from the rhizomes), cut the nettles, and then spot spray anything that's left.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
I'm using a flail mower (tow along self powered thing which seems to be doing a good job on the thistle at least. I don't mind nettle in small qty but I do need to knock it back a bit. I would estimate I have about an acre at the top of one field with no grass underneath. It's where the sheep have always gone at night so no surprise it's very fertile.
Isn't it just grand, all that P gone off the rest of the field to grow a big nettle crop! :banghead::cry::cry:
Would it be possible or feasible to change the fencing layout, to make the area less of a campsite eg put it at the side of a smaller field instead of it being the top of a bigger one?
Did that even make sense?:whistle:
I guess the cell/mob/techno grazing system could work best for my understanding of your system, with flexinet cells to keep all the animals where you want them? Obviously much easier with cattle and a single wire but can always strim a line for the net and whack any big uglies while you're there! :scratchhead:
Perhaps that will give you best control over fertility transfer and weeds and improve the soil all for the same price.. (y):unsure:
 

Treg

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Cornwall
I'm using a flail mower (tow along self powered thing which seems to be doing a good job on the thistle at least. I don't mind nettle in small qty but I do need to knock it back a bit. I would estimate I have about an acre at the top of one field with no grass underneath. It's where the sheep have always gone at night so no surprise it's very fertile.
Keep cutting the nettles back and chuck some grass seed there or even better a herb mix. If left bare you will keep getting weeds coming back o_Oo_O
 

Pasty

Member
Location
Devon
Isn't it just grand, all that P gone off the rest of the field to grow a big nettle crop! :banghead::cry::cry:
Would it be possible or feasible to change the fencing layout, to make the area less of a campsite eg put it at the side of a smaller field instead of it being the top of a bigger one?
Did that even make sense?:whistle:
I guess the cell/mob/techno grazing system could work best for my understanding of your system, with flexinet cells to keep all the animals where you want them? Obviously much easier with cattle and a single wire but can always strim a line for the net and whack any big uglies while you're there! :scratchhead:
Perhaps that will give you best control over fertility transfer and weeds and improve the soil all for the same price.. (y):unsure:
Yes, mob grazing is where we are going. I've only taken control in the last couple years and it's been let for grazing for decades with no gates etc. First priority is external gates / fences which had been totally let to go and once we are contained, we'll start dividing up.
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Forget 'cut in July then they'll die' in this part of the world for thistles. Most years they'll have already set seed by then, and they'll grow back fast enough to set seed again late unless cut very late in July.
Cut multiple times a year if your keen, though I'm not convinced that'll deplete them much.
Biannual thistles should be easy enough to get on top of just by cutting before flowering - with levels of seed stock in the soil dictating how long it takes!
Find the mob stocking interesting and quite open to seeing if that helps.

Always remember a slide shown by Charlie Morgan showing a field divided into 3 and only difference in management of the 3 was 1 had no fert/ lime, 1 just had fert, and 1 had fert and lime. All stocked to growing capacity. Guess which was the cleanest?! Point being farming it well enabled grass to outcompete the weed.
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
But as weeds are there because of past management, you'd think it would be simple enough to get rid of them with current management. The reason that they appear is (without wanting to sound too poncey) that there is an ecological niche for them...ie high phosphorous fertility, like under trees where animals congregate, you get nettles; or compacted areas suit docks and thistles which with their tap-roots can out-compete grasses. Spraying them isn't sorting out the problem, you are merely treating the symptoms. Strangely enough, the docks etc can cure the compaction and thus eliminate their own niche, leaving the ground perfect for grass.

Similarly, continuously grazing a pasture (ie set-stocking) will result in the animals eating the tastiest grasses down to the ground and favouring thistles/docks etc (and Yorkshire Fog) resulting in weed infestation. You can top this the whole time, but it is really much easier and cheaper to mob-graze. If you go and look at any of the worlds great grasslands, which are mob-grazed by vast herds of herbivores (wildebeest, bison etc), you won't find thistles and docks being a problem or taking over. What fun it is recreating these conditions on your very own farm...we've even got African weather at the moment...

Hmm,
1. We have a lot of fields with no docks or thistles, in fact most of them only have the odd handful, yet they aren't on an African savannah.:scratchhead: Perhaps the lack of dock seeds on that land has a bearing?
2. I'm not convinced on the whole mob stocking thing, but I do see that you can make the system work WITH CATTLE, and only the right sort of cattle at that.
3. I do agree on set stocking helping to create those favourable conditions for weeds.

Changing the conditions that favour those weeds, simply won't get rid of them if they are already there. I would suggest that, to get meaningful long term control you need to kill the existing weeds (& those that come from the seed bank) as well as changing those conditions. Sensible use of effective selective herbicides can play a role in that IME. This place was covered in weeds (mostly nettles & thistles) when I moved here, as any of the locals will testify. So much so that I sprayed 170ac of pp with Thistlex in year 1 to make a start. A sizable chunk had the same again the next year. In year 3, 100ac of pp were sprayed with 2-4D to get the established buttercups under more control. I also limed to raise the pH, changed grazing management and apply nutrients to suit grass & clover growth. Now (year 5) I hardly have any thistles, nettles or docks on the whole of my pasture land, other than a handful scattered about and clover is increasing nicely again. Some ground has been reseeded through arable or fodder crops, but most is still the same pp, it just has greater proportions of the more productive species.
I have many blocks of established woodland around the farm, which is managed by the estate, and that is full of nettles & brambles, so I haven't wiped out that habitat, just altered the balance in favour of productively farming the pasture land.
 

dudders

Member
Location
East Sussex
A while ago I asked here about how to get on top of creeping buttercup. A mate told me to lie down on it...

Since then a regime of tight grazing by sheep and close topping has made things a lot better. An aggressive setting on the spring-tine harrow rips out a lot of the above-ground tendrils these things use to spread. Also wherever I'd recently made hay, the buttercup was worst, so no more haymaking for a while - could get used to that, though...
 
This is a bramble thistle and firrweed with mob stocking yesterday. Stripped bare.
Works best with hill sheep in this case swales, the tex crosses didn't really show much interest but did nibble. The swales and heb x suf got stuck in an demolished the weeds.
 

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martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
Hmm,
1. We have a lot of fields with no docks or thistles, in fact most of them only have the odd handful, yet they aren't on an African savannah.:scratchhead: Perhaps the lack of dock seeds on that land has a bearing?
2. I'm not convinced on the whole mob stocking thing, but I do see that you can make the system work WITH CATTLE, and only the right sort of cattle at that.
3. I do agree on set stocking helping to create those favourable conditions for weeds.

Changing the conditions that favour those weeds, simply won't get rid of them if they are already there. I would suggest that, to get meaningful long term control you need to kill the existing weeds (& those that come from the seed bank) as well as changing those conditions. Sensible use of effective selective herbicides can play a role in that IME. This place was covered in weeds (mostly nettles & thistles) when I moved here, as any of the locals will testify. So much so that I sprayed 170ac of pp with Thistlex in year 1 to make a start. A sizable chunk had the same again the next year. In year 3, 100ac of pp were sprayed with 2-4D to get the established buttercups under more control. I also limed to raise the pH, changed grazing management and apply nutrients to suit grass & clover growth. Now (year 5) I hardly have any thistles, nettles or docks on the whole of my pasture land, other than a handful scattered about and clover is increasing nicely again. Some ground has been reseeded through arable or fodder crops, but most is still the same pp, it just has greater proportions of the more productive species.
I have many blocks of established woodland around the farm, which is managed by the estate, and that is full of nettles & brambles, so I haven't wiped out that habitat, just altered the balance in favour of productively farming the pasture land.
Fair enough and each to their own. My point is that permanent pastures are dense with every sort of seed, waiting for their moment to germinate...we've seen charlock and poppies appear as if from nowhere on ploughing pp (a long time ago obviously), the seed had been biding its time (50 odd years) waiting for it's moment. Dock seeds will be the same, just because they are there, doesn't mean they have to sprout. The air might be white with thistle down, it's not going to turn into thistles unless it lands on bare soil in the right nick.

You are obviously a good farmer and have achieved success in your own way. We are arsing about with mob-grazing and having a lot of fun and our own success... each to their own. The OP didn't want to spray, my contention is that he doesn't need to. But you are probably right that he might need some cattle to go with the sheep
 

martian

DD Moderator
BASE UK Member
Location
N Herts
I forgot to say that if anyone wants to see a bit of mob-grazing and hear a lot of speakers extolling the benefits of pasture grazing, then they can still get tickets to the Grass-Fed Day at Groundswell on 28th June (Wednesday next week). There will be a lot of interesting farmers to talk to as well...

Details on website: www.groundswellag.com
 

7610 super q

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
There it is again. Don't mention spray, I'm not doing it under any circumstances.............................. Spray it.

There is no hope for UK farming. Constipation of imagination.

What has gone wrong? Has subsidy caused this? Can we no longer manage the land without paying the dirty little shitweasel chem salesman his due? They have got us. Truly got us. UK farming is brain dead and needs a revolution.
I was organic and didn't spray for 25 years Docks beat me in the end. I know others that got beaten by cooch. I tried to be a hero the last 3 years, and rogue out wild oats. Spent 4 weeks every summer doing nowt else. Before the time of the " shitweasel chem salesman " weeds were a constant battle on most farms. Have a go without if that suits. Might be able to keep on top of the problem pulling/ digging / cutting on a small acreage if you want to kill yourself. Been there, done that.....no thanks.
 
I am not trying to be provocative here. But if thistles and other rubbish are growing from April and then seed in July what sheep are people mob grazing onto weeds to get rid of the weeds during these months. I only ask because they are the months when my ewes should be feeding lambs and I am constantly looking to make sure they have the best grass I can find and can't quite see how tightly feeding on weeds is going to finish lambs.
 

Poorbuthappy

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
I am not trying to be provocative here. But if thistles and other rubbish are growing from April and then seed in July what sheep are people mob grazing onto weeds to get rid of the weeds during these months. I only ask because they are the months when my ewes should be feeding lambs and I am constantly looking to make sure they have the best grass I can find and can't quite see how tightly feeding on weeds is going to finish lambs.
Fair point and I think even the advocate of mob grazing suggested cattle may need to be added.
I've played around with a bit of mob grazing and think it has potential with the cows, but have great reservations with sheep
 

Grabbist

New Member
A good agricultural botany book will tell you what conditions encourage different weed species, and how to control them. (I use Agricultural Botany by Gill and Vear published by Duckworths in 1969. Although the herbicides are out of date, the agronomic characteristics of the weeds are not, so recommended cultural controls still work - though experience may lead you to adapt them for your farm.) Some weeds are favoured by soil nutrient deficiencies, so adding FYM or chalk might help grass to out-compete the weeds. Weeds like rush are favoured by nutrient deficiencies and water-logging.Nettles have weak roots, and rolling the field will reduce (though not eliminate them). Dragging (with a chain harrow) will also pull out some nettle root. Creeping thistle produces a mass of roots in a layer between 8inches and a foot beneath the soil surface - on the top of the subsoil or on the plough pan if the field has been ploughed in bad conditions. For small colonies it is possible though very hard work, to scrape off the top soil and remove the roots, which will come up like a mattress, though this is almost certainly stupidly uneconomic. It is said that creeping thistle puts all its energy into flowering, and only afterwards returns nutrients to the roots, so leaving it until the flower buds have formed, and then cutting for three years will exhaust the weed. But letting thistles grow that big means you have no grass. Docks also shade grass, but are eaten by sheep and cattle, providing there are not too many of them. We have rare breed Norfolk Horn sheep, and they seem to prefer weedy grass and will eat young thistle - (except when you want them to!) , and will quite happily browse shrubs bramble, thorn, hazel etc - though acorns are poisonous to them). Weeds will be preserved, and spread round the farm if they are allowed to produce seed before you take a hay cut, but most seeds are destroyed in traditional clamp silage. So however you win your winter feed, an early cut would be preferred on a weedy pasture. Though persuading a contractor to cut before the crop has achieved its full bulk may be difficult, especially if bigger customers have vast acres of silage to harvest. An elderly neighbour of mine who has been farming since the days of the farm horse (he served an apprenticeship as a saddler before coming home to the family farm) says that weed seeds are in the air, so you just have to learn to live with them, and it is true that if you buy in forage or FYM you will also be buying in some of the weeds from the farm that produced them. (My neighbour does not seem to have suffered from "living with his weeds", and his farm , and cattle, always look wonderful.) Raising your overall stocking rate to a cow, 5 sheep or 25 geese per acre (no more, and 10 -20% less if you are using rare or primitive breeds) will also help keep weeds down, though it is best to graze on three week cycles with a grazing pressure of many times your over all stocking rate. If animals are crammed in tight enough, they will have no choice, but to eat the weeds, and then at least you will not have to look at them. But remember that too high grazing pressure can also lead to poaching and soil structure problems , and therefore more weeds if the weather turns nasty.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Leader/follower system with sheep leading eating the best, cattle hoovering up next, might be the answer?
That's the slant I've put on it here.
Depending on the practicality of electric fencing I usually put the biggest lambs in first, so they get the best of it, then run the calves and smaller lambs in behind them to tidy it up.. and there's plenty for everyone, its not like they deck it and start to roam.
This year I still topped some but it was more for looks and weed control than much else. An extra 120 calves would have been better!
I lost my nerve a bit when I started getting scald issues but to be fair 1% isn't much of an issue, just I am very fussy about nipping things in the bud- eventually worked out if I kept them off the short grass they came right :scratchhead: i.e. I put them in the leader mob.
 

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