Organic Zero-Till - Anyone in the UK

[Dan Powell]

I have a problem with this as the organic bodies seem to have a mantra much like "chemicals bad diesel good". This goes against the facts that the compounds such as roundup are " probably carcinogenic" whereas diesel definitely is. Saving the planet is a matter of opinion.

I quite agree. But as soon as you use a single herbicide you are by definition no longer organic. Therefore you are tied to the whole input driven method of farming with all its problems.

I'm increasingly convinced that crop health is negatively impacted by pesticides. Glyphosate locks up mineral nutrition and so may have a negative impact before a crop is even sown.

Regardless of the ethics, if it was possibly to farm sustainably or even regeneratively without being stuck on the input heavy chemical farming route and make a good living too, then why wouldn't you do it?

 

[Flat 10]

http://www.heko-landmaschinen.de/pdf/2013_Ringschneider.pdf

wild looking machine!

There was a thread on this in the conventional section where it has been promoted as a BG chitter. I think they are imported by Quatermaine agri or something.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I quite agree. But as soon as you use a single herbicide you are by definition no longer organic. Therefore you are tied to the whole input driven method of farming with all its problems.

I'm increasingly convinced that crop health is negatively impacted by pesticides. Glyphosate locks up mineral nutrition and so may have a negative impact before a crop is even sown.

Regardless of the ethics, if it was possibly to farm sustainably or even regeneratively without being stuck on the input heavy chemical farming route and make a good living too, then why wouldn't you do it?

You don't know that gly locks up mineral nutrition much more than any other herbicide. Unless you are following Mr Huber..

And anyway organic farming isn't more sustainable or regenerative than any other method. Most need a replacement source of p and k unless importing feed from elsewhere.

 

[Dan Powell]

You don't know that gly locks up mineral nutrition much more than any other herbicide. Unless you are following Mr Huber..

And anyway organic farming isn't more sustainable or regenerative than any other method. Most need a replacement source of p and k unless importing feed from elsewhere.

Not saying that this is definitive obviously: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate

Also I have noticed that I have more vigour in seedlings in spray misses. I also have more weeds...

 

[SilliamWhale]

Not saying that this is definitive obviously: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate

Also I have noticed that I have more vigour in seedlings in spray misses. I also have more weeds...

I can see that it may have some drawbacks that we are not yet fully able to quantify and that it probaly could have an affect on the availability of minerals but what we don't know is how long this affect can last for, how serious it is and what it is like compared to a host of other herbicides.

What is the time gap between spraying and seeding where you notice poorer vigour? I have definitely in the past had trouble with rounduping too close to drilling in spring cereals but since I moved to leaving at least 21 days before drilling after roundup in the spring (and waiting for a bit of warmth) and placing some fert (which I would have sown anyway) I feel the vigour issue is much ameliorated.

 

[Dan Powell]

Where I have drilled on the green in autumn after OSR the wheat in a 6 metre wide miss looked a lot better than that either side. Sprayed off 24 hours after drilling in that case.

This spring I'm not sure 21 days was enough in spring barley. I had better germination where it was more like 28 days but I guess it was very cold.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Where I have drilled on the green in autumn after OSR the wheat in a 6 metre wide miss looked a lot better than that either side. Sprayed off 24 hours after drilling in that case.

This spring I'm not sure 21 days was enough in spring barley. I had better germination where it was more like 28 days but I guess it was very cold.

Yes the cold would have made a difference and the level of detritus of course. But things are slow.

Maybe it is a drawback of on the green? I don't really do it on the green even for Autumn crops.

 

[Simon C]

Where I have drilled on the green in autumn after OSR the wheat in a 6 metre wide miss looked a lot better than that either side. Sprayed off 24 hours after drilling in that case.

This spring I'm not sure 21 days was enough in spring barley. I had better germination where it was more like 28 days but I guess it was very cold.

Dan, how does this fit with my theory about glyphosate going into the soil via root exudates and being taken up by the following crop, not necessarily killing it, but giving it a bit of a headache.

 

[dontknowanything]

Not saying that this is definitive obviously: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate

Also I have noticed that I have more vigour in seedlings in spray misses. I also have more weeds...

Is that not due to competition from the weeds making the seedlings grow more? Like where you double drill it's always bigger and more vigorous.

 

[Dan Powell]

Is that not due to competition from the weeds making the seedlings grow more? Like where you double drill it's always bigger and more vigorous.

Dan, how does this fit with my theory about glyphosate going into the soil via root exudates and being taken up by the following crop, not necessarily killing it, but giving it a bit of a headache.

Wish I knew.

Just to be contrary, the best spring barley establishment is where cover crop was grazed down to bare earth and glyphosate used three weeks before drilling just to clear up some little bits of brome. Most of the field was just dead stalks.

Maybe it only has an negative effect if the roots are living, in which case @Simon C is right.

Maybe it doesn't matter, put loads of manganese on the growing crop and use compost and don't worry?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Wish I knew.

Just to be contrary, the best spring barley establishment is where cover crop was grazed down to bare earth and glyphosate used three weeks before drilling just to clear up some little bits of brome. Most of the field was just dead stalks.

Maybe it only has an negative effect if the roots are living, in which case @Simon C is right.

Maybe it doesn't matter, put loads of manganese on the growing crop and use compost and don't worry?

This approach works well for me

 

[SilliamWhale]

Spring barley, beans, winter barley, 2nd wheat,

 

[Baling Hay]

I have been asked to drill Spring barley for an organic farmer next spring into white clover. Will keep you all updated as and when things happen!

How did this go?

 

[Drillman]

I have a freind and neighbour who is dabbling with his weaving GD on his organic farm