Organic Zero-Till - Anyone in the UK

[Clive]

The definition of compost (rightly or wrongly) is 'Decayed organic material used as a fertilizer for growing plants:
cover with a layer of fine compost'

You can't get decay without heat build up so it's impossible to make compost without heat, unless of course the definition of compost is wrong.

As for compost tea then sounds like we should bottle it and sell to China! It's a waste product here.

there has ti be heat but here view is nit as much heat as UK commercial sites use to satisfy stuff like PAS100 etc

what do you do with your site run off ? its not going to be like the stuff Ingham talks about but I would still be spreading it !

 

[New Puritan]

Thanks both...
So I need to get some compost delivered to my land. There's locally some municipal type stuff available, but how much use is it? I'm guessing it will have a high woodchip content, so will improve soil carbon content but not add huge amounts of nutrients. As it's PAS100 certified will that mean it has little use in terms of benficial microbes - does PAS100 always go above 70C then?
As for making compost, what would you make it from in situ? Bear in mind I am all arable.
These feel like naive questions to be asking, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any surprising answers out there.
Cheers,

 

[Clive]

Sorry, I shouldn't have implied you were obsessed, I just hear a lot of the time "how can we make enough compost tea", and very rarely "how can we make good compost"!

The advantage would be being able to apply much easier and faster through a sprayer. Possible foliar applications too, and being able to make an amount of compost go further.

its a bit chicken and egg really - pointless making it if you can't make enough of it and apply it etc

but your right in that the most important bit is the quality of the compost your making the tea from - thats not hard to solve though really, juts follow her recipe and instructions

 

[Clive]

Thanks both...
So I need to get some compost delivered to my land. There's locally some municipal type stuff available, but how much use is it? I'm guessing it will have a high woodchip content, so will improve soil carbon content but not add huge amounts of nutrients. As it's PAS100 certified will that mean it has little use in terms of benficial microbes - does PAS100 always go above 70C then?
As for making compost, what would you make it from in situ? Bear in mind I am all arable.
These feel like naive questions to be asking, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any surprising answers out there.
Cheers,

municipal compost is useless biological really - the EA regs in the UK make sure of that

Its still worth having though as its carbon ultimately. Just don't go paying much for it, your doing other peoples waste disposal after all remember

 

[warksfarmer]

there has ti be heat but here view is nit as much heat as UK commercial sites use to satisfy stuff like PAS100 etc

what do you do with your site run off ? its not going to be like the stuff Ingham talks about but I would still be spreading it !

It's complicated.

Deployment compost leechate can be spread under a U10 certificate which most farms now hold.

Pas 100 compost leechate cannot be spread under a U10 certificate.

Reason being is more wastes are allowed under Pas 100 so rules are stricter so technically if your producing Pas 100 compost ironically you then need a deployment to spread the leechate from that process which costs £780 for every 50ha.

The whole system is backwards because 'deployed compost' is better than PAS100 compost in my view but that's another discussion entirely.

 

[warksfarmer]

Thanks both...
So I need to get some compost delivered to my land. There's locally some municipal type stuff available, but how much use is it? I'm guessing it will have a high woodchip content, so will improve soil carbon content but not add huge amounts of nutrients. As it's PAS100 certified will that mean it has little use in terms of benficial microbes - does PAS100 always go above 70C then?
As for making compost, what would you make it from in situ? Bear in mind I am all arable.
These feel like naive questions to be asking, but I'm just wondering if anyone has any surprising answers out there.
Cheers,

Ok if you have pas 100 compost then it's produced to a standard. I can absolutely assure you that standard is hard to reach and maintain and is a royal pain in the arse generally, but it's consistent. Like all rules placed on us there are ways to play it within reason.

In my view it's over processed and over processing reduces the nutrient value. The 0-10mm powder is useless in agriculture but looks good to the general public when they put it in their gardens.

The fact it's municipal is totally irrelevant because most compost is generated from municipal waste. It's how it's processed is the important thing! You can take it then reprocess it to a certain extent if you wish to.

 

[clbarclay]

there has ti be heat but here view is nit as much heat as UK commercial sites use to satisfy stuff like PAS100 etc

what do you do with your site run off ? its not going to be like the stuff Ingham talks about but I would still be spreading it !

How much run off is typical? One surgestion was to use site run off to remoisten the windrows. I expect that depending on site and weather there could be too much for just that.

A neighbour is experimenting on a small scale, one tea aplicator was just an IBC with a dribble bar. Some results were less than impressive with crops being worse where it was applied, a theory was there isn't much point applying lots of hungry microbes if there isn't plenty of food already there for them, so you might as well just apply good compost.

 

[warksfarmer]

How much run off is typical? One surgestion was to use site run off to remoisten the windrows. I expect that depending on site and weather there could be too much for just that.

A neighbour is experimenting on a small scale, one tea aplicator was just an IBC with a dribble bar. Some results were less than impressive with crops being worse where it was applied, a theory was there isn't much point applying lots of hungry microbes if there isn't plenty of food already there for them, so you might as well just apply good compost.

Its standard procedure and written into the management plan, to use the leechate and reapply it to the windrows. You save the winter leechate up to then use in the summer months to dampen the compost down. Of course there are exceptions like 2012 but even then its handled. The idea is to keep the compost pad full at all times because the material is a sponge.

 

[The_Swede]

@New Puritan I'm sure i've read on here that PAS 100 type compost can be 'brought back to life' as it were by stacking on field margin near woodland / trees and allowing natural ingress of wild fungi etc - might be an option. This woody municipal type material is generally 2-£3/t delivered around here, if you have year round dry tipping you are potentially holding the cards a bit more as it would appear some composting sites are tight on storage at certain (wet) times of year.

 

[New Puritan]

Thanks everyone. Sorry, this thread has been slightly derailed talking about compost instead of no till organic, but it's all related I suppose.

@Jason - thanks for the tip on price for compost, that was going to be my next question. Is that the really woody stuff though, that tree surgeons etc. produce, and has it been composted at all? That kind of stuff robs the soil of N in the short term doesn't it?

The price I was quoted was substantially more than that, but I'm not sure how much better (or not) it is... Plus they don't deliver, so I have to find a haulier as well.

Regards,
NP.

 

[The_Swede]

Quite right, woody (or any other high C:N ratio) material will certainly require some N to breakdown before its re-released. Certainly wouldn't be relying on any compost to contribute directly to crop available N (but obviously very useful P, K, Carbon, soil conditioning etc). If remaining stockless on the farm then N--Fixing cover crops, and / or fertility building breaks will be your only tangible source IMHO.

Despite the rigorous protocols I've certainly seen PAS accredited compost that was still distinctly 'woody', pine needles and all! Personally i think ~£3/t delivered is about where its at once you factor in spreading costs, general hassle etc. If collecting i'd say it must be both very very local and FOC, don't underestimate the costs, wear and tear of machienery etc, on the plus side if collecting at least you get a good look at each load!

 

[Farmersdaughter]

Some very interesting discussion on compost. My understanding is that compost tea is like compost, if you want it to be any good you have to make it properly. I went on course about making and using compost tea, everyone else there were using it on golf greens. rugby pitches etc. They seemed to have quite a bit of experience in using it ,( unlike me) and it seemed as hard to make compost tea as to make good compost. The main point was having a good biological active compost to start with, then you had to make sure it was aerated properly, the brew time and added ingredients were also important. The idea is to multiple to bugs up and encourage the ones that were found useful. These sports grass could not take compost on so needed to use compost tea. They did have very good results though improving drainage, rooting reducing weeds and disease.

 

[warksfarmer]

Thanks everyone. Sorry, this thread has been slightly derailed talking about compost instead of no till organic, but it's all related I suppose.

@Jason - thanks for the tip on price for compost, that was going to be my next question. Is that the really woody stuff though, that tree surgeons etc. produce, and has it been composted at all? That kind of stuff robs the soil of N in the short term doesn't it?

The price I was quoted was substantially more than that, but I'm not sure how much better (or not) it is... Plus they don't deliver, so I have to find a haulier as well.

Regards,
NP.

You will have been quoted for PAS 100 because it's really the only type that can be sold without having the hassle of 'waste to land' deployments and those cost £780/50ha so at an application rate of 25t/ha that's £0.62/t before it even leaves the pad. Then you've got haulage which is mileage dependent but I doubt you'll see any change from £2/t as a starting point for a few miles round trip. Then you've got loading and spreading which will be at least £1.50/t.

So your easily going to be around £4/t +

At 25t/ha that's £100/ha and then potential mess from spreaders and trailers.

Don't forget soil analysis to justify the application!

It's questionable whether it's worth it from a nutrient pov but at the end of the day compost is now a commodity. It sells in garden centres for £1/kg and more if you start adding things to it to entice Mr Smith and Mr Jones to use on his precious garden.

Personally I think we are very close to it bypassing agriculture completely and going domestic only.

 

[New Puritan]

So going back to the compost tea, and assuming I make decent enough compost in the first place, how do I practically make some compost tea? Presumably what I do not want is a big load of anaerobic sludge, so what do I do? Fill up builder's bags with compost and hang them in a tank of rainwater? It all seems a bit small scale. Did someone on here mention using an IBC on an old trailer to spray it? If that was you, care to upload a photo of the rig?
Thanks,
NP.

 

[warksfarmer]

So going back to the compost tea, and assuming I make decent enough compost in the first place, how do I practically make some compost tea? Presumably what I do not want is a big load of anaerobic sludge, so what do I do? Fill up builder's bags with compost and hang them in a tank of rainwater? It all seems a bit small scale. Did someone on here mention using an IBC on an old trailer to spray it? If that was you, care to upload a photo of the rig?
Thanks,
NP.

Fill a grain trailer up with compost and then dump water on it. Collect that water and then keep dumping it on the trailer and collecting.

Exactly the same as a compost site, whether it's 5000 tonnes or 500000 tonnes matters not.

 

[Dan Powell]

@York

Is this an example of "to kill and not to till"?

http://www.rath-maschinen.com/de/geohobel

It looks like a development of a rotavator. Have you seen one in action and can they be used across an organic rotation? I'm guessing they would struggle to destroy a grass/clover ley.

If you were to create a stale seed bed with one and then interrow harrow, this could be the organic alternative to no till.

 

[York]

@York

Is this an example of "to kill and not to till"?

http://www.rath-maschinen.com/de/geohobel

It looks like a development of a rotavator. Have you seen one in action and can they be used across an organic rotation? I'm guessing they would struggle to destroy a grass/clover ley.

If you were to create a stale seed bed with one and then interrow harrow, this could be the organic alternative to no till.

Dan,
no, it's not the one I refer to.
Had a call from a farmer, in transition to organic and did start to work with us 2 years ago, and he is determined to go without the plow and seldom uses it. Only when brome, over the winter, has taken control and he was planning a spring crop he plows, 15cm max. depth. No for him the plow is also the only tool which can move soil uphill as he has to battle the results of high erosion which happened by the previous managers.
Last year, in a high drought year, he yielded almost the same in wheat than his conv. neighbours. 5 to 6 t/ha.
A passive working unit is this:
http://www.agri-broker.de/241.html
Ringschneider Video
or look at the inventor page, http://www.heko-landmaschinen.de/?l=1, 3rd picture on the right, from top.
It is used on several organic farms.
Personally I haven't seen the above mentioned and also the passive one working. I have seen the results of the passive. Farmer did use it in wet weather, so how you expect anything to die?
York-Th.

 

[silvio berlusconi]

http://www.heko-landmaschinen.de/pdf/2013_Ringschneider.pdf

wild looking machine!

 

[Dan Powell]

Dan,
no, it's not the one I refer to.
Had a call from a farmer, in transition to organic and did start to work with us 2 years ago, and he is determined to go without the plow and seldom uses it. Only when brome, over the winter, has taken control and he was planning a spring crop he plows, 15cm max. depth. No for him the plow is also the only tool which can move soil uphill as he has to battle the results of high erosion which happened by the previous managers.
Last year, in a high drought year, he yielded almost the same in wheat than his conv. neighbours. 5 to 6 t/ha.
A passive working unit is this:
http://www.agri-broker.de/241.html
Ringschneider Video
or look at the inventor page, http://www.heko-landmaschinen.de/?l=1, 3rd picture on the right, from top.
It is used on several organic farms.
Personally I haven't seen the above mentioned and also the passive one working. I have seen the results of the passive. Farmer did use it in wet weather, so how you expect anything to die?
York-Th.

Interesting tool. My German is hopeless, but I'm guessing it just undercuts the plants and then the action of the ring cutters sieves the soil from the roots and then the plants should die if they dry out sufficiently. Not sure it would work on docks or couch.

On these organic farms are they needing to do deeper cultivations due to a shallow pan forming? Perhaps not necessary with a Claydon type drill.

 

[mikep]

I have a problem with this as the organic bodies seem to have a mantra much like "chemicals bad diesel good". This goes against the facts that the compounds such as roundup are " probably carcinogenic" whereas diesel definitely is. Saving the planet is a matter of opinion.