Ovivac p

[TexelBen]

I wouldn't dare not do them, we've had a few pop their clogs in the past with pasturella, wouldn't take a lot to die to make it worth jabbing them

 

[Al R]

Talking to a farmer last night who I've got a lot of respect for as everything is done to the best. He was asking if I'd ovivac'd lambs yet. When I said we only did the ewe lambs pre tupping and no heptavac P or toxo etc like him and then ovivac'd the lambs we started dicussing losses, he lost more in 2 days at 1 point in lambing than I did in 3 weeks of my busy period :0 his neighbour has got lambs dropping like peas at 2-3 weeks old and their on full vaccination job too!

We might just be lucky, incredibly lucky maybe as going for so long without vaccinating.

@GrannyAching £50!!!!!! Do they pick it up for that? Scandalous charge! No wonder I don't know anyone that have had sheep sent there!

 

[GrannyAching]

@GrannyAching £50!!!!!! Do they pick it up for that? Scandalous charge! No wonder I don't know anyone that have had sheep sent there!

I don't think actually think £50 is that much really for a full spectrum of tests that will come up with an answer (which could of course still be "inconclusive"). There are people paying £15 for a FEC which they could do themselves and most of the time wouldn't need a vet to advise them what to do. I couldn't do the PM tests so, if I had a rash of losses or a pattern in losses (https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/scmallenburg.168702/#post-3730242) I would consider it money well spent. Living where we live we just have to accept it's hours to go anywhere - you could probably get it couriered cheaper than your time is worth! Also for a PM on a sheep - cut it open say what they can see it might be less, it's lab work that is costly.

 

[Nithsdale]

Stopped doing lambs 12-15 years ago here.

Would never go back to jagging them.
I lose no more through the year now, as i did when vaccinating. It's 1 less gather. 1 less job. 1 less day of stress for the lambs - and 3 or 4 days less stress for me!

 

[Al R]

Stopped doing lambs 12-15 years ago here.

Would never go back to jagging them.
I lose no more through the year now, as i did when vaccinating. It's 1 less gather. 1 less job. 1 less day of stress for the lambs - and 3 or 4 days less stress for me!

Plus the cost of it all! Your still on heptavac though? My friend was saying last night that we need to sit down 1 night and properly work out total losses in a year and see if it's worth him doing all these vaccinations as he's been wanting to stop doing them but hasn't got the Tato newi (balls) to stop!

 

[Nithsdale]

Plus the cost of it all! Your still on heptavac though? My friend was saying last night that we need to sit down 1 night and properly work out total losses in a year and see if it's worth him doing all these vaccinations as he's been wanting to stop doing them but hasn't got the Tato newi (balls) to stop!

No. Stopped Heptavac P in 2005. Just use Covexin8. The price savings is huge!

The weather has been much more mixed the last 4 or 5 years, though, and 2 autumn's ago i did lose a handful ewes to Pneumonia. But I'm still financially ahead since stopping vaccinating.

 

[neilo]

I've dropped Heptavac for the ewes (shearlings & older) as of this year, moving over to Bravoxin 10. I'm intending doing the lambs with Ovivac, the same as I have done for several years now, primary dose to everything and a second dose to long keep lambs & replacement ewe lambs. I won't bother starting those ewe lambs on Heptavac now, just boost the Ovivac pre-lambing for hoggs, and take the chance on lamb dysentery for that group. The majority of the flock will be covered for that with the Bravoxin, so a calculated risk imo.

I've been grumbling about the ever increasing cost of Heptavac for years, but the decider was losing several vaccinated ewes to Pasteurella in the summer. If the vaccine prevented losses to P then i could (begrudgingly) justify the cost. If it doesn't, I'll keep the savings on vaccine.

 

[bovine]

the decider was losing several vaccinated ewes to Pasteurella in the summer. If the vaccine prevented losses to P then i could (begrudgingly) justify the cost.

This is the part that worries me - clearly you have the risk factors and see the disease. No vaccine is 100% effective (in humans they look at 80% protection as successful). If you were going to lose 50 animals from pasturella and the vaccine prevented 45 from dying then the 5 you lose don't seem all that bad. Pasturella comes in outbreaks (along with the other clostridial diseases) and so 1 year will naturally be very different to another. We really need some good split flock trials (half vaccinated, half not) over a number of years to really quantify the benefits.

With some of the outbreaks I've dealt with in my career, these are actually comparatively very cheap vaccines (but I see the problems, not the people getting away with it).

Do remember we have a duty to the animals under our care to prevent unnecessary suffering, I think vaccination as good husbandry comes into this.

 

[neilo]

This is the part that worries me - clearly you have the risk factors and see the disease. No vaccine is 100% effective (in humans they look at 80% protection as successful). If you were going to lose 50 animals from pasturella and the vaccine prevented 45 from dying then the 5 you lose don't seem all that bad. Pasturella comes in outbreaks (along with the other clostridial diseases) and so 1 year will naturally be very different to another. We really need some good split flock trials (half vaccinated, half not) over a number of years to really quantify the benefits.

With some of the outbreaks I've dealt with in my career, these are actually comparatively very cheap vaccines (but I see the problems, not the people getting away with it).

Do remember we have a duty to the animals under our care to prevent unnecessary suffering, I think vaccination as good husbandry comes into this.

I agree, hence the plan to continue covering young animals, which are those potentially at most risk I believe.
I have to say that my experience this summer (8 vaccinated pedigree/high value ewes lost in a week) have dented my confidence in the P coverage, especially considering the extra cost compared to Bravoxin. PM came back as a strain not covered.

 

[bovine]

I can see why it dented your confidence but can we put this to bed:

PM came back as a strain not covered.

Heptavac P Plus has been developed following research and development which resulted in the application of Plus ‘IRP’ technology for the manufacture of the Pasteurella/Mannheimia components of this vaccine. The inclusion of these IRP components should provide enhanced efficacy and cross protection e.g. protection against serotype A12, which is not included in the vaccine, has been demonstrated. Studies on the response of sheep to this vaccine show that two injections separated by an interval of 4-6 weeks are required to gain the full benefit of the ‘IRP’.

​

 

[Lovegoodstock]

If ewes are on hep p system and you switch to bravoxin 10, I presume you have to start them fresh, ie 2 jabs, and not a booster jab? I ovivac some, early lambers I kill lambs at an average I guess 13 weeks, would lose, and it is that regular, 2 a year, marked up to go next day for slaughter, always the worst sight but 2 losses and 600 not done, not worth it. Ewe lambs don't do first 100 to 200 born depending on numbers, so I only dose 250 lambs to maximise usage of bottle size, same theory I find you lose with pasturella when things are thriving, killing early, yes thriving but seem to find a fraction before it becomes an issue

 

[neilo]

All the effected sheep had received 2 doses of Ovivac P as lambs, then 2 doses of Heptavac P (to get them onto 'the system') prior to lambing as ewe lambs, then subsequent annual boosters. Most of the ones I lost had received that booster in February, prior to that outbreak in early July.

Admittedly, only the one had a full PM at AHVLA lab, others only done with a knife to confirm pasteurella. Maybe she was the only one with the 'odd' strain, but unlikely I'd have thought.

 

[neilo]

If ewes are on hep p system and you switch to bravoxin 10, I presume you have to start them fresh, ie 2 jabs, and not a booster jab? I ovivac some, early lambers I kill lambs at an average I guess 13 weeks, would lose, and it is that regular, 2 a year, marked up to go next day for slaughter, always the worst sight but 2 losses and 600 not done, not worth it. Ewe lambs don't do first 100 to 200 born depending on numbers, so I only dose 250 lambs to maximise usage of bottle size, same theory I find you lose with pasturella when things are thriving, killing early, yes thriving but seem to find a fraction before it becomes an issue

Yes. If you just gave them one dose, you'd only boost the clostridial components from the Heptavac, not the full ten in the Bravoxin. If you were happy to do that, you might as well just give Covexin 8 as the booster instead. Bravoxin is 21p/dose, Covexin is 8p and Heptavac is 67p.

 

[bovine]

All the effected sheep had received 2 doses of Ovivac P as lambs, then 2 doses of Heptavac P (to get them onto 'the system') prior to lambing as ewe lambs, then subsequent annual boosters. Most of the ones I lost had received that booster in February, prior to that outbreak in early July.

Admittedly, only the one had a full PM at AHVLA lab, others only done with a knife to confirm pasteurella. Maybe she was the only one with the 'odd' strain, but unlikely I'd have thought.

I agree the losses are a shame and you'd hope they were fully protected, but it's not 100%.

The vaccine offers cross protection against all strains of pasturella. If someone tells you it was a strain not included in the vaccine then they don't understand the vaccine.

 

[neilo]

I agree the losses are a shame and you'd hope they were fully protected, but it's not 100%.

The vaccine offers cross protection against all strains of pasturella. If someone tells you it was a strain not included in the vaccine then they don't understand the vaccine.

The cross protection was discussed at length, both with my vet and the AHVLA vet. The fact remains though, that the vaccine didn't adequately protect those sheep, for whatever reason. Usual MSD answer is 'you might have lost a lot more without the vaccine', but who knows if that would actually be the case?

 

[bovine]

I still agree. What level of protection would you (as a user) be happy with?

100% isn't an acceptable answer, no vaccine is perfect and we know 100% of animals will not properly respond to vaccination.

 

[Lovegoodstock]

You know farmers well enough, they want protection that saves them more than it costs, which effectively is how long is a piece of string!! Also it can be a yearly issue, no 2 years alike. It simply is playing the roulette wheel surely? Sadly to vaccinate for everything available, im sure will mean a guaranteed unviable business, so its assessing what your farm is at risk of, and making an educated risk assessment. Our sheds are good, never use rispavrol, which seems a great expense, had an issue with rotovirus 5 years ago, vaccinate most cows with ope of building up immunity. Think your brave to not cover anything with cov/ hep / brav, but lambs think there is a case to use or not as suits your farm?

 

[hally]

We dropped the p part of hetavac years ago due to the ewes response to the vaccine booster pre lambing, they were often sick for a few days with the inevitable abortion, staggers etc. We only use covexin for the ewes and ovivac for the lambs ( twice ), personally I always thought the coverage for pastuerella was at best sporadic and certainly not long lasting. They seem to be covered for only a few weeks then it seemed to fall away and we had to boost again to cover moving to winter keep. We certainly do not loose enough lambs with pastuerella to justify the extra vaccination cost and am happy with my decision so far. I am afraid with ever reducing livestock margins there is going to be tough decisions to be made with regards to risk and vaccinations, the standard vet "vaccinate for everything" approach may simply not be affordable.

 

[jemski]

A couple of years ago I lost about 20 ewes post lambing, all the same symptoms. I had 3 pm'd and all showed pasteurella. All ewes get full protection here, and had had their annual booster a month pre lambing. So I don't have much faith in the vaccine, although in this case it was triggered by lungworm.
I've lost 2 this year, to the strain that makes them go green and blow up in a few hours.
I'm tempted to give up giving it, but am terrified of what might happen if I don't do it!!!!!

 

[jemski]

Interestingly I very occasionally lose the odd lamb to pareurella but always lose a ewe or two a month or so after lambing to it.