Parrot mouthed lambs

[twizzel]

Only have a small flock of 20 ewes, but this year had a cluster of lambs born with parrot mouths. Sorting all my lambing notes out last week and all 7 lambs noted for bad mouths, all born within 3 days of each other, out of 35 lambs born. Everything else born earlier or later is ok. All from the same ram although his mouth is fine and the flock he came from hasn’t had any issues before. Ewes mouths are fine too, all first time lambers though.

Could the timing of these lambs be schmallenberg, or just coincidental? No other congenital defects or still births, did have enzo this year. The ewes whose lambs are affected had orf badly just after tupping (shearlings didn’t have immunity so we’re hit hard but older ewes did), but whether that would affect lamb development I’m not sure? Just the timing seems strange. Wondered if anyone else had anything similar. The lambs seem to be going on ok and growing relatively well at the mo.

 

[Jockers84]

Has it only started with using a new ram?

 

[twizzel]

Has it only started with using a new ram?

Yes, though anything born either side of this cluster were fine. Spoke to his breeders they were as surprised as I was. Obv will monitor next year but thought if ram was at fault the bad mouthed lambs would have been born fairly evenly spaced over lambing, not just a couple of days?

 

[Jockers84]

Maybe ask the breeder to swap it for a ram with slightly different bloodlines? Seems odd it's a cluster but I'd want to remove the ram from the equation before you end up with more next year.

 

[Still Farming]

Any in breeding?

 

[Al R]

Any pictures of said mouths?

 

[twizzel]

Sadly can’t swap as breeder is mv acc and I’m not. I’ll have to try him again next year, can’t afford to cull him at the moment after 1 season. Rest of his lambs are very good, so any potential replacements will go through their mouths with a fine tooth comb. Worst comes to worst next year if he throws the same then he’ll have to go and any with bad mouths obviously going fat. Just wondered if anyone else had had clusters of lambs born like this.

No inbreeding.

Pic of unlucky number 13

 

[Al R]

Overshot/undershot-ness is in the breeding usually. Only ever seen it in BFL’s, some years 3-4 out of 30 and other years none

 

[Skintagain]

Seen it in some random Jacob’s we ended up with. Really really bad too. Couple were overshot by over an inch. I sent them all in and didn’t breed off any

 

[Skintagain]

Sadly can’t swap as breeder is mv acc and I’m not. I’ll have to try him again next year, can’t afford to cull him at the moment after 1 season. Rest of his lambs are very good, so any potential replacements will go through their mouths with a fine tooth comb. Worst comes to worst next year if he throws the same then he’ll have to go and any with bad mouths obviously going fat. Just wondered if anyone else had had clusters of lambs born like this.

No inbreeding.

Pic of unlucky number 13

View attachment 953048

Likely to be in the ram. Keep said ram and buy a ram lamb for this next year and tup half and half. That will likely show it up. You can go back to breeder then.

 

[twizzel]

I’ve got another ram so that’s no problem- different breed but all his lambs have been fine. I think I’ll just try him again and see what happens, if it’s bad then I’ll just have to cull him. In fairness 4 ewes had lambs with bad mouths- 1 is cull in autumn, 1 is going to the other ram this year, and 2 I was planning on putting back to the same ram. Obviously with a small flock thorough recording is easily done.

 

[neilo]

‘The flock the ram came from hasn’t had any issues’. Now why doesn’t that surprise me? That would be like getting a Texel breeder to admit that he’d ever seen a case of entropion....

I’d record it, and maybe use the ram more sparingly next year....just in case.
However, I’ve always thought it’s usually something other than genetics at play. Using the same rams on the same ewes, I might occasionally have a couple like it, then none at all the next year, the same as one stoned ram lambs, etc.
Sometimes it’s just one of those things, maybe caused by something going through them at a certain stage of pregnancy, or the phase of the moon at tupping. Who knows?

 

[idgni]

‘The flock the ram came from hasn’t had any issues’. Now why doesn’t that surprise me? That would be like getting a Texel breeder to admit that he’d ever seen a case of entropion....

I’d record it, and maybe use the ram more sparingly next year....just in case.
However, I’ve always thought it’s usually something other than genetics at play. Using the same rams on the same ewes, I might occasionally have a couple like it, then none at all the next year, the same as one stoned ram lambs, etc.
Sometimes it’s just one of those things, maybe caused by something going through them at a certain stage of pregnancy, or the phase of the moon at tupping. Who knows?

I'd have to agree with this, have a mule Ewe who is one of them that you remember for some reason or another,
Put her to a Suffolk this year to try get a few ewe lambs off her, pleased as punch when she landed two cracking ewe lambs,
only to find both undershot by at least 10mm!! ,
Her lambs were perfect every other year, and no cases for last two years with the suffolk tup

 

[andybk]

‘The flock the ram came from hasn’t had any issues’. Now why doesn’t that surprise me? That would be like getting a Texel breeder to admit that he’d ever seen a case of entropion....

I’d record it, and maybe use the ram more sparingly next year....just in case.
However, I’ve always thought it’s usually something other than genetics at play. Using the same rams on the same ewes, I might occasionally have a couple like it, then none at all the next year, the same as one stoned ram lambs, etc.
Sometimes it’s just one of those things, maybe caused by something going through them at a certain stage of pregnancy, or the phase of the moon at tupping. Who knows?

agree with this , Every time you breed sheep its a roll of the dice on how the different genetics match up , might be worth looking at the ewes , since recording started here , unusual things happen not normally noticed , often family groups of ewes lamb very close times to each other , more than once a ewe and two generations of offspring have lambed within a day or two , even happened within a few hours , so might even be ewes , agree with above though would use ram sparingly next time , till you know if it happens again , wouldnt hurt to have another coming along behind in case of fertility issues , sudden death etc

 

[Al R]

agree with this , Every time you breed sheep its a roll of the dice on how the different genetics match up , might be worth looking at the ewes , since recording started here , unusual things happen not normally noticed , often family groups of ewes lamb very close times to each other , more than once a ewe and two generations of offspring have lambed within a day or two , even happened within a few hours , so might even be ewes , agree with above though would use ram sparingly next time , till you know if it happens again , wouldnt hurt to have another coming along behind in case of fertility issues , sudden death etc

My BFL’s are like that they set each other off with some lambing 7-14 days early to keep up with their mother/sister etc

 

[spin cycle]

i was reading the first half of your post and thought 'schmallenberg'

 

[twizzel]

i was reading the first half of your post and thought 'schmallenberg'

Well that’s passed through my mind too to be honest, more than once, given the close proximity of them being born. I could get them blood tested, but then if they are growing ok and will just go as fat lambs into my lamb boxes, is there much point ?

The ewes that had bad lambs are all out of the same ram but their mothers are from 3 different flocks. I guess I’ll just try again next year and see what happens, if the ram throws them again then probably time for him to go.

 

[Moors Lad]

The ewes that had bad lambs are all out of the same ram

I`d be inclined to think it`s a weakness in the breeding and it could very easily come from the dam`s side especially if they "click" with that particular ram - if possible in your shoes I`d avoid that particular mating combination in future, and I`d certainly try not to keep any female lambs from that particular "cross". I`ve seen ewes by a certain tup leave a sprinking of that problem when mated to differing tups....
I`d try to be cautious of what you keep as replacements , avoiding as much as possible keeping gimmers of that particular "cross" and if it it possible avoid the daughters of the ewes of that common sire AND the offspring of the "suspect" ram, however we sometimes have to just go for it and hope things don`t get out of control - at least they can be fattened and disposed of that way!

 

[DartmoorEwe]

We had a few parrotmouthed lambs several years ago. It started me recording the lambs and ewes. Couldn't do it that year as had no mark on the ewes or the lambs but the next year, when it happened again I could match the new crop of parrotmouths with their mums and sisters (I remember having m/f twins, the m was affected but the f was not. Both and the mum were marked to go). It took a couple of years as the first generation had got into the breeding flock but I got rid of the family and have had no parrotmouths since.

Alternatively, if you want to prove whether its genetic or not then put the parrotmouthed female lambs and their mother back to the suspect ram and see what comes out. You've a small enough flock to keep very good records so then you'll know for sure.