Paying agronomist by yield results !

[Clive]

You've spent 15 years slagging off distributor agronomy and now you've turned!

not at all

I would still only ever take independent advice here

But that advice does cost and has to be added to the costs of saving made buying independently, for some farms the advice cost may out weigh product the saving is all I'm saying, its all very scale dependent

I am now aware that some distributors will sit down with larger units and write the a cheque for any over spend at the year end if the farmers can prove a price was not competitive ............... there are farmers that join buying groups and never buy anything just to get this data to beat up their supplier with !


Of course the ideal situation is to not use independent or distributor and make your own decisions ! so lets limit the "how smart am I using a independent" claim just a little ! The really smart guy looking for every saving possible would be doing his own agronomy


One think that us for sue is that the internet has well and truly screwed up the ag chem market - since we have had this new price transparency juts look at what has happened to distributions profits !! ............... some days I wonder why I am still alive or why TFF hasn't been hacked a lot or why someone hasn't offered a lot off cash to make social media juts STFU !

 

[ajd132]

not at all

I would still only ever take independent advice here

But that advice does cost and has to be added to the costs of saving made buying independently, for some farms the advice cost may out weight the saving is all I'm saying


Of course the ideal situation is to not use independent or distributor and make your own decisions ! so lets limit the "how smart am I using a independent" claim just a little ! The really smart guy looking for every saving possible would be doing his own agronomy

And sourcing chemical direct from manufacture.

 

[warksfarmer]

I think you are missing a bit here.

Being an agronomist with control over, say, 20,000 acres gives you a great deal of commercial worth. Distributors know it. Manufacturers know it. All agronomists will surely have a palette of favoured products that they know well and use a lot: it makes little or no sense for me to be recommending a thousand different T2 products when a handful I know like the back of my hand will suffice. Does your guy specify particular products and what if he was to recommend something that isn't available from multiple homes?

In the situation above what is there to stop me using a lot of, I don't know- Amistar- and getting a rebate in my back pocket for using 1L/ha over the bulk of my cereal acreage, say 3000 litres and thanks very much?

I’m not missing anything, you are though.

This is how it works. The Indy crop walks for a set fee per acre, let’s say £5/acre. They then recommend an application with active ingredients. That’s their job done.

The farmer then sends out a group email to as many chemical suppliers as he wishes, or a buying group if they are members stating what they want.

The cheapest supplier then gets the deal. Make sure you ask for generics as well. The Indy doesn’t even know where the chems come from because he doesn’t need to know.

The farmer has to give the agronomist a remit of course which for me is we are spending as little as possible for best economic return and I don’t care what the crops look like because immaculate fields don’t pay.

 

[Clive]

And sourcing chemical direct from manufacture.

This is coming I think, probably not from the big R&D guys yet however as they are far too dependent on distribution to dare upset them ........... yet !

It will be the smaller, generic manufactures that are loosing access to the market through distribution rapidly that become keen to supply farms direct - it would make a lot of sense for them to do this and a few already are doing

as you kind of know we have something exciting upcoming to market next year that will hopefully change things for the better

 

[An Gof]

I’ve read the article and am somewhat confused. It appears that it’s all about yield rather than margin.
By focussing on yield, once you have signed
the agreement you have no control on input/spray cost.
So Agrii can make the margin on expensive Chems AND reap a reward if you get a good yield. If the crop is poor they win by selling expensive chemical.
Judging by some of the comments over the years on this forum on recommendations and products supplied by Agrii I’m not sure they would be my first choice for a partnership like this.

 

[T Hectares]

I’ve read the article and am somewhat confused. It appears that it’s all about yield rather than margin.
By focussing on yield, once you have signed
The freemen’s you have no control on input/spray cost.
So Agrii can make the margin on expensive Chems AND reap a reward if you get a good yield. If the crop is poor they win by selling expensive chemical.
Judging by some of the comments over the years on this forum on recommendations and products supplied by Agrii I’m not sure they would be my first choice for a partnership like this.

It's just the next step for the sweaty palm of Agrii to increase it's grip on your scrotum

Some "farmers" may be into that, I'm not...

 

[Hooby Farmer]

not at all

I would still only ever take independent advice here

But that advice does cost and has to be added to the costs of saving made buying independently, for some farms the advice cost may out weigh product the saving is all I'm saying, its all very scale dependent

I am now aware that some distributors will sit down with larger units and write the a cheque for any over spend at the year end if the farmers can prove a price was not competitive ............... there are farmers that join buying groups and never buy anything just to get this data to beat up their supplier with !


Of course the ideal situation is to not use independent or distributor and make your own decisions ! so lets limit the "how smart am I using a independent" claim just a little ! The really smart guy looking for every saving possible would be doing his own agronomy


One think that us for sue is that the internet has well and truly screwed up the ag chem market - since we have had this new price transparency juts look at what has happened to distributions profits !! ............... some days I wonder why I am still alive or why TFF hasn't been hacked a lot or why someone hasn't offered a lot off cash to make social media juts STFU !

Yup scale is good I couldn't afford to pay an agronomist, and put everything in that they recommend. My father was a whizz at chems and fert I never really took much interest, but since the he has alzhiemers I now realise I should have listened more. I have a big local arable farmer helping me this year, and I must say he's saved me a heck of a lot of money. Simple things like dont use this brand use this and this as they have the same key ingredients but half the price. Little tit bits like that are good when you know dont the real breakdown of the products.

 

[Clive]

I’ve read the article and am somewhat confused. It appears that it’s all about yield rather than margin.
By focussing on yield, once you have signed
The freemen’s you have no control on input/spray cost.
So Agrii can make the margin on expensive Chems AND reap a reward if you get a good yield. If the crop is poor they win by selling expensive chemical.
Judging by some of the comments over the years on this forum on recommendations and products supplied by Agrii I’m not sure they would be my first choice for a partnership like this.

until the obsession with yield ends farming in the uk will never really make sense

 

[SilliamWhale]

I’ve read the article and am somewhat confused. It appears that it’s all about yield rather than margin.
By focussing on yield, once you have signed
The freemen’s you have no control on input/spray cost.
So Agrii can make the margin on expensive Chems AND reap a reward if you get a good yield. If the crop is poor they win by selling expensive chemical.
Judging by some of the comments over the years on this forum on recommendations and products supplied by Agrii I’m not sure they would be my first choice for a partnership like this.

Agrii are my favourite suppliers. Great delivery and good prices

 

[Clive]

you can insure yield now so I wonder if Agrii are having this risk underwritten ?

 

[warksfarmer]

I’ve read the article and am somewhat confused. It appears that it’s all about yield rather than margin.
By focussing on yield, once you have signed
The freemen’s you have no control on input/spray cost.
So Agrii can make the margin on expensive Chems AND reap a reward if you get a good yield. If the crop is poor they win by selling expensive chemical.
Judging by some of the comments over the years on this forum on recommendations and products supplied by Agrii I’m not sure they would be my first choice for a partnership like this.

As I said earlier you can’t polish a turd so why bother trying. Soils have a yield max if the weather plays ball.

So if your long term wheat average yield is 3.5t/ac like ours why bother to even attempt to average 4t/ac out of a can or bag. You will get 4t every now and again and it’s purely down to the weather, nothing else, not even establishment. I’ve mauled wheat in with a combi drill in November and got 3.8t of group 1 wheat. Likewise I’ve grown 2t the same way. It’s the weather that decides.

Even drilling timings are a load of twaddle. They want you to drill earlier to sell more inputs to keep the crop alive. They also fabricate trials to sell their wares I’m sure.

The whole thing is a disgrace and should be investigated as it’s nothing but fraud.

 

[shakerator]

you can insure yield now so I wonder if Agrii are having this risk underwritten ?

How ?

 

[Widgetone]

While I'm sure agriculture has its fair share of snake oil salespersons, and global corporates who might not have individual growers best interests to heart, there needs to be some trust in those with whom you deal with.
If you honestly believe everyone out there is trying to lift a leg, its a difficult industry to operate in.
But I agree entirely with a reluctance jump into a closed loop type of existence - surely no joy in that?

 

[Two Tone]

Agrii are my favourite suppliers. Great delivery and good prices

I gave them the sack!
Never known any other company trying to Weasel themselves into my business and trying to work out exactly how much profit I was making.
The words Trust, Grandmother and Wheelbarrow instantly come to mind.

 

[Clive]

How ?

Crop shortfall insurance - Lycetts

www.lycetts.co.uk

takes a bit of getting your head around but i was offered this a couple of weeks ago and thought it was “interesting”.

not quite sure what to make of it and would be interested to hear opinion of others ?


this might be worth starting a new thread for ?

 

[Two Tone]

If you want a truly independent agronomist, you pay him a figure per acre and he DOES NOT supply anything Other than advice. You, not he, then get your farming co-op group, like Fram Farmers, Ouse and Cherwell or Orion Farming Group to supply, preferably generics at the cheapest price. End of!

 

[ollie989898]

because any "independent" advisor doing so would no longer be independent - their worth would instantly be gone and they would get sacked. Your post makes me think that any agronomist who has worked in distribution has become so institutionalized that its almost impossible for you to understand how it can work without the situation your post outlines !


Independent MEANS independent - ie advice is completely de-coupled from supply of product. You advice it and I buy it from wherever I want, you as an agronomist have nothing to do with my purchases so have no mechanism for rebate etc


That all said however I have mellowed a bit on my view of distributor agronomy - I can see that for a farm of a certain size it can work, lets not forget that an independent is not free ! - this is certainly not a straightforward discussion, fact is different things suit different people and circumstances

I think there is a sound environmental case that advice should be legally decoupled from supply and I think we could well see that in the future

So there is no such thing as an independent out there charging an acreage fee and selling seed and chemicals as well?

Like I said, we agree on something then...

 

[Clive]

So there is no such thing as an independent out there charging an acreage fee and selling seed and chemicals as well?

Like I said, we agree on something then...

anyone selling product is not independant - it’s odd you don’t seem to be able to understand that ?

so no such thing yes !

i pay my independent for advice and nothing more

for clarity

independent = charges for advice, sells no product

anyone else = free or charged advice and sells / supplies product

 

[ollie989898]

anyone selling product is not independant - it’s odd you don’t seem to be able to understand that ?

so no such thing yes !

i pay my independent for advice and nothing more

I understand everything perfectly: it's odd that you can't see that.

But there are independents out there involved in the supply of product. This was my point.

 

[Clive]

I understand everything perfectly: it's odd that you can't see that.

But there are independents out there involved in the supply of product. This was my point.

if they are involved in supply of product they are NOT independent