PC Andrew Harper

egbert

Member
Livestock Farmer
There are lots of countries who have capital punishment. They still have large numbers of horrific crimes being committed, often at rates exceeding those in the UK. It is clear that even the threat of a death penalty is no deterrent to criminals worldwide. Why then bother to have the penalty since it deters no one and makes no member of society safer?

I understand the issue of cost, therefore the prison service should be reformed to be as cheap and safe as possible and to maintain the physical and mental well being of inmates so their cost to society is as low as practically possible. Prison is about neither punishment nor revenge. It's simply a way of removing from society those who can't follow the rules. It is nothing more or less.

Those who are incarcerated should be encouraged to work 45 hours per week to offset the cost of keeping them in the first place. They should be allowed to expand and improve and maintain their facilities, howsoever that is financed or performed is open to debate. Having large populations of people confined but with fudge all else to do all day but take drugs is never going to end well.

ah, but you're young and idealistic.
I am not.

Convicted repeat child molester? Through the trapdoor.
Killing someone during an aggravated robbery? Down the hatch.
Knowingly dragging a policeman to his death, so as to continue a career of petty crime? Prove it was done knowingly, and what right to life should they have? Ask how their community would wish to respond if it were the other way round?

In fact, when I first mooted the TV reality show, I suggested there'd be a queue of folk willing to pay for the chance to pull the lever.

We live in a badly overcrowded island, in a badly overcrowded world. Our own society has monumental problems with respect for the rule of law and it's not getting better. I am waaaay too old and grumpy to be bothered talking nice to em now.
 
Location
southwest
Really?
The tractor driver may be - and it's none of my concern- guilty of all kinds of ignorance and omission, which led to a fatality.
He seems to have been going about otherwise legitimate business, and his/someones corner cutting looks like it cost a 3rd party their life.
A moments bad timing, and an accident that maybe better state of repair could've avoided....and someone died.
He/they will very likely bear the punishment for that.
(a custodial sentence is almost a cert I'd guess)

The 3 young men in this case went out thieving, knowing full well that the old bill might get after them.
Indeed, it was a statistical certainly that they'd have a copper after them at some point.
And when one did, they almost certainly knowingly dragged him to his death.
When the rest of the old bill turned up, they and their extended network tried to wriggle out of responsibility - it appears that lawlessness at that horrific scale is ingrained in their culture.
The suggestion is that they're still to this day showing little or no remorse.

I'd say there's a world of difference.

So you are suggesting that anyone committing a theft might reasonable expect to kill a policeman in the course of their activities?
I shudder at what happened to the police officer, but no one can possibly suggest that the three set out to kill him in this or any other way. Therefore in the eyes of the law, they cannot be found guilty of murder. On your logic every drink driver or driver of an unsafe vehicle could be tried for murder.
 

tepapa

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
North Wales
So you are suggesting that anyone committing a theft might reasonable expect to kill a policeman in the course of their activities?
I shudder at what happened to the police officer, but no one can possibly suggest that the three set out to kill him in this or any other way. Therefore in the eyes of the law, they cannot be found guilty of murder. On your logic every drink driver or driver of an unsafe vehicle could be tried for murder.
I think they crossed a line once they realised he was being dragged. If they'd have stopped immediately then fair enough man slaughter. Once they realised and carried on then that was murder.
 

egbert

Member
Livestock Farmer
So you are suggesting that anyone committing a theft might reasonable expect to kill a policeman in the course of their activities?
I shudder at what happened to the police officer, but no one can possibly suggest that the three set out to kill him in this or any other way. Therefore in the eyes of the law, they cannot be found guilty of murder. On your logic every drink driver or driver of an unsafe vehicle could be tried for murder.

I have carefully avoided saying whether or not the 3 should be guilty of murder.
( I wouldn't want to have to say)
I would say that they're guilty of almost the highest degree of manslaughter.

I am, however, absolutely drawing a line between, on the one hand, someone using an unsafe-possibly- vehicle, which then causes -possibly- a fatal accident, and one the other hand, those who go out thieving, knowing full well that the law might try, at any time, to stop them.
 

JCfarmer

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
warks
Can we really wonder that the police are not more proactive when it comes to rural crime, when the judiciary fail to support them when an incident like this occurs.
The judge could have handed down the maximum sentence which would at least have given Pc Andrew Harper's family some closure and shown the rest of the police forces that violence towards police officer will not be tolerated and those committing the crimes will feel the full weight of the law.
The worry is that police officers will be told to stand back in a situation like this, let them take the quad bike especially when they suspect its pikey scum! Let them go!
 

forblue

Member
This argument would not continue if the tossers were disposed of permanently, why as a taxpayer should we continue to keep them in luxury in prison, if any of us keep a so called dangerous dog and it kill's some we will get charged and the dog will be put down, i say an eye for an eye those who live by the sword will die by the sword, society has got soft it's allays someone else's problem turn the other cheek, if Hitler was alive today what would he have got a few year's in nick and what about Goebbels did he set out to murder the jew' s, well he din't press the button to release the gas did he, so those who say manslaughter if it was your wife,daughter or son that got dragged to death what would you do...........
 

manhill

Member
These thieves need our understanding. Probab!y brought up in poverty and squalor and of low intelligence. unable to understand the seriousness of their crimes, hence the stupid grins. Have to steal to get fuel for their vehicles because the gov won't provide it, life is so hard and probably miss out on the corona virus grant scheme as well. It's so unfair. A little more love and understanding is needed, now where do I pull that lever??
 

MrNoo

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Cirencester
Lee Rigby's murderers being a classic case of needing a tap on the back of their heads, instead we as tax payers are financing their current lifestyle. Which actually cant be that bad with 3 square meals a day, free TV, no license to pay for either. Dare say they have heating to keep them warm too.
I bet they actually have a better quality of life than some people on the outside.
I think sub'ing it out to prisons elsewhere is an excellent idea, out of sight out of mind, am sure Siberia would be just the place for them. G4S needs to get a few over there.
 

Grassman

Member
Location
Derbyshire
These thieves need our understanding. Probab!y brought up in poverty and squalor and of low intelligence. unable to understand the seriousness of their crimes, hence the stupid grins. Have to steal to get fuel for their vehicles because the gov won't provide it, life is so hard and probably miss out on the corona virus grant scheme as well. It's so unfair. A little more love and understanding is needed, now where do I pull that lever??
You nearly had me there! :D
 

Grassman

Member
Location
Derbyshire
Nobody is happy with the verdict but he has been tried by a jury who having sat through the hearing have a far better understanding of the situation.

Not guilty of murder, because he/they did not set out with the intention to kill anyone.Same as killing someone in a road accident is not murder as there is no intent to kill.

Maximum sentence for manslaughter is Life Imprisonment
Try actually reading what I wrote rather than seeming to revel in the brutality of the incident.

There was no intention to kill him, therefore it can't be murder.

The Jury sat through the trial, heard the evidence and the legal arguments, are you suggesting that they were incompetent?
Intimidation is the name of the game with these scum. No doubt they confronted jurors and threatened what would be happening to their pets, children, homes, etc.
 

Grassman

Member
Location
Derbyshire
We are virtually a third world country now as regards law enforcement.
Something like 96% of crime doesn't get a successful prosecution. Even the ones that are prosecuted often only get a very feeble result of little deterrent.
Hardly any investigations happen even if evidence is handed on a plate. You have more chance using Facebook to track perpetrators than the police doing it.
This is not some backwater in Uganda. Its the UK now.
 

Grassman

Member
Location
Derbyshire
I would happily pay a lot more tax to get a police and prison service fit for purpose.
I want to be able to ring the police and have blue lights coming down the road minutes later.
I expect police to actually come along in force and move travellers off private land immediately.
If vans are knocking about at night I expect police to be out and about so the chances of getting stopped are high.
Its a continuous flow of crime reports in our area of things being stolen. Garden furniture is a favorite at the moment. Quads, motorcycles, chainsaws and chippers, cars, caravans, motor homes, vans, tools.
I know people who actually live in fear of crime now. Main perpetrators seem to be east Europeans, low life whites after dole money top up and travellers.
 

Angus

Member
Location
Devon
Is the silence deafening, or, have I missed it? Has there been no condemnation by any "travellers- or whatever they are called" , celebrity or otherwise of this heinous crime? I believe David Essex is from travelling people; the boxing fellow , Tyson Fury and do they not now have someone who holds an official post as a spokesperson for them - name unknown to me. They seem to be able to make plenty of noise about their rights when it suits them.
 

Vizslaman

Member
Location
Hampshire
This was copied from FB

In the USA a career criminal dies whilst being arrested for another crime because a police officer doesn’t know proper arrest procedure... the world riots!
Everyone changes their social media pictures.
Everyone wears badges in support.
Politicians, actors, footballers and celebrities all scream for justice.
Amazon start selling Blue Lives Murder T shirts.
It gets so extreme the army is called in to quell the unrest.
The cop is charged with murder almost instantly.
In the UK a police officer is brutally murdered on duty trying to prevent a burglary by career criminals who laugh and joke throughout the crime and the trial.
Nothing happens.
Silence.
The world carries on regardless.
Even his own country doesn’t care!
Where is your outrage now?
Where are the badges?
The public show of support?
Where are the celebrity voices?
A police officer was flayed alive doing his job, protecting YOU, YOUR FAMILY, YOUR PROPERTY.
Are you going to riot for his life?
Are you going to protest his right to life?
No you’re not, likely you’ll do nothing at all.
In 8 years, yes 8 years, his murderers will be back out and committing crime. Their victims will start bitching about the police not doing their jobs: "Where were you? Why weren’t you here sooner? You Police are useless!" you’ll shout.
Do you know what the Police will say? No you’re wrong, they’ll apologise for not being quicker and not being there but what I want to know is...
WHERE WERE YOU WHEN WE NEEDED YOUR SUPPORT, WHERE'S YOUR OUTRAGE NOW?
Get this shared folks, far and wide because I want to know how a country can call justice served when a police officer's murderers are jailed for 16 years (out in 8)
#justiceforandrewharper
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

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