Performance recorded rams

[andybk]

I was somewhere a few years back , and was told the animal in the next pen was the highest recorded ram ever of a certain breed , structurally he was very poor with bad shaped feet and pasturns , and nothing very special to look at , and he was being used for AI to be sold and wouldnt ever have been shown . Now i can see how someone might want to get those growth / muscle figures into their own flock and breed the faults out , but temptation to sell semen on must be great to a breeder that wouldnt have seen the sheep in question . and will just propagate the issue down the line with someone else . may explain a few one ballers etc

 

[neilo]

I was somewhere a few years back , and was told the animal in the next pen was the highest recorded ram ever of a certain breed , structurally he was very poor with bad shaped feet and pasturns , and nothing very special to look at , and he was being used for AI to be sold and wouldnt ever have been shown . Now i can see how someone might want to get those growth / muscle figures into their own flock and breed the faults out , but temptation to sell semen on must be great to a breeder that wouldnt have seen the sheep in question . and will just propagate the issue down the line with someone else . may explain a few one ballers etc

Have you never bred a ram with one ball then? It just happens sometimes, nothing to do with ebvs, breeding faults, or anything else. You can even buy them in Kelso, if you don't bother checking them yourselves.

 

[MRT]

For my part; we bought two rams in to our recorded flock last year, one high index (looked - ok at best), one unrecorded monster from a show flock (looked the business). The progeny from the high index one grew like hell - the show bred ones are all way behind. Fortunately we only gave the showy one a little work.

 

[andybk]

Have you never bred a ram with one ball then? It just happens sometimes, nothing to do with ebvs, breeding faults, or anything else. You can even buy them in Kelso, if you don't bother checking them yourselves.

no your getting wrong end of stick , nothing to do with recording , just someone might be tempted to use a less than correct ram because he has excellent ebvs in some traits , The fact that ram was there was a case in point, anyone like ourselves simply wouldnt have taken it because it wasnt right in the fist place . (it wasnt a charollais BTW)

 

[Woolless]

no your getting wrong end of stick , nothing to do with recording , just someone might be tempted to use a less than correct ram because he has excellent ebvs in some traits , The fact that ram was there was a case in point, anyone like ourselves simply wouldnt have taken it because it wasnt right in the fist place . (it wasnt a charollais BTW)

It's a temptation that needs to be resisted. My top index tup lamb (by about 50) needed dosed when the rest were fine and has little horns. He's big and fine otherwise but will be going on a hook shortly.

 

[glensman]

It's a temptation that needs to be resisted. My top index tup lamb (by about 50) needed dosed when the rest were fine and has little horns. He's big and fine otherwise but will be going on a hook shortly.

That takes discipline

 

[Woolless]

That takes discipline

It does but then next year I might be umming and ahhing about ten high index tup lambs with shitty arses and horn stubs! I have 20 on the shortlist from about 80 to run on at the moment. That will be reduced to nearer 10 when i go through them at the weekend.

 

[Ysgythan]

It does but then next year I might be umming and ahhing about ten high index tup lambs with shitty arses and horn stubs! I have 20 on the shortlist from about 80 to run on at the moment. That will be reduced to nearer 10 when i go through them at the weekend.

What’s wrong with horn stubs?

 

[spark_28]

im starting out with 20 pure lleyn gimmers and my long term aim is to sell rams locally. Problem is my land is poor, my lamb weights will be nowhere near what someone on lowground will be so will come across crap.

Totally belevee in recording sheep though to weed out the rubbish and breed from the best and thats certainly what ill do

 

[Ysgythan]

im starting out with 20 pure lleyn gimmers and my long term aim is to sell rams locally. Problem is my land is poor, my lamb weights will be nowhere near what someone on lowground will be so will come across crap.

Totally belevee in recording sheep though to weed out the rubbish and breed from the best and thats certainly what ill do

Not necessarily. It’s designed to cancel out the effect of “management”. It’s not top weights that give you good scores but the difference between your average and your top weight considering the national average for that year compared to the baseline average. That’s why you should record everything, including your runts and pets. On your Signet print out you will see raw data from some high performing lambs that will have a very broad range.

 

[Woolless]

What’s wrong with horn stubs?

Easycare aren't meant to have horns, although some throw back to the Wiltshire Horn and have smallish ones. You can't sell them at society sales if you do, not that it bothers me currently. Just trying to standardise type.

A straight answer to a straight question?.

 

[Ysgythan]

Easycare aren't meant to have horns, although some throw back to the Wiltshire Horn and have smallish ones. You can't sell them at society sales if you do, not that it bothers me currently. Just trying to standardise type.

A straight answer to a straight question?.

Easy cares have petty aesthetic breed points?

?

 

[glensman]

Easy cares have petty aesthetic breed points?

?

Lambing ease?

 

[Ysgythan]

Lambing ease?

I don’t think she’s talking Blackie horns?

 

[Woolless]

I don’t think she’s talking Blackie horns?

No, not on this lamb though I have seen a few decent pairs.

Btw, I'm 6ft 3 and 19 stone. I would struggle to find lingerie to fit, if I were female!

 

[Jrp221]

How do EBV’s work if the ram is an embryo? A single lamb, born to a recip will potentially do better than one born from its natural mother? Rearing systems will also massively impact weights etc, lambs reared indoors, pushed on creep are going to have heavier 8 wk weights than those out on grass. We have looked into recording but there is little coverage for scanning down here.

 

[Ysgythan]

No, not on this lamb though I have seen a few decent pairs.

Btw, I'm 6ft 3 and 19 stone. I would struggle to find lingerie to fit, if I were female!

Oh Blydi hell! Sorry...

 

[Ysgythan]

How do EBV’s work if the ram is an embryo? A single lamb, born to a recip will potentially do better than one born from its natural mother? Rearing systems will also massively impact weights etc, lambs reared indoors, pushed on creep are going to have heavier 8 wk weights than those out on grass. We have looked into recording but there is little coverage for scanning down here.

They put massive negative indexes on the recipient ewes. Even then the donor is benefitting hugely from linkages in one year you may not normally see in a lifetime of breeding. So the better embryos will have the top figures every year, but the ones who are just ordinary get slammed.

As to the system, those indoor lambs may actually lose out. If they’re indoors and reliant mainly on creep you’d expect them to be more consistent. That means the average for the flock is higher and the chance of the better lambs being well above average is less. They may all weigh more but that in fact may hold the better ones back.

 

[gatepost]

How do EBV’s work if the ram is an embryo? A single lamb, born to a recip will potentially do better than one born from its natural mother? Rearing systems will also massively impact weights etc, lambs reared indoors, pushed on creep are going to have heavier 8 wk weights than those out on grass. We have looked into recording but there is little coverage for scanning down here.

As far as I know, unless it has been changed,, they are all weighted as if they were born and reared on a 3rd crop ewe, however I found that if you knocked 100 pts off their index then that was about right (pre re basing) If you are in a breed that is both numerous and genetically linked between flocks then supposedly across breed BLUB sorts out the differences in rearing system, but don't think It can't really quite cope with the extremes, that's were Ram Compare becomes interesting with the same reference rams being used across all flocks, certainly has identified a few 'charlatans'

 

[Ysgythan]

that's were Ram Compare becomes interesting with the same reference rams being used across all flocks, certainly has identified a few 'charlatans'

To be fair, the purpose of the exercise was to improve commercial relevance. That’s because when you breed terminal sires that are performance recorded and pure, but don’t record the crossbred commercial flock at all the maths is facing an uphill struggle. I’m not saying there aren’t charlatans, but what is being just as exposed are the limitations of the pre Ram Compare system.