Performance recorded rams

[SheepTerrier]

Just wondering how many of you look for performance recorded rams when you are buying? Do you think that it a major thing or do you think its a waste of time?

 

[Bury the Trash]

Well done correctly its gonna tell you more of what hes likely to pass on genetically rather than ooh look at hes ass, hes a big lad...etc...etc.

 

[Woolless]

Yes. I buy recorded tups whenever I can (not always easy with Easycare, terminals more available). The tups I sell are recorded. More and more folks looking for them.

 

[RushesToo]

When you buy something of importance checking it out is one of the things you do, hours worked, MOT, surveyors report etc. I would pay more for something where I knew what I was getting over a blind guess. It should be priced accordingly.

If it is available why wouldn't you?

 

[Longlowdog]

All very well buying the high figure tup but he's only 50% of the lamb. There's nothing to say you won't get the mother's gigot and the father's feet. Unless we are accepting prepotency as a dead cert'.

 

[RushesToo]

All very well buying the high figure tup but he's only 50% of the lamb. There's nothing to say you won't get the mother's gigot and the father's feet. Unless we are accepting prepotency as a dead cert'.

So record better. At the end of the year he will be more than 50% as he has left lambs for the next generation and 25% after that ...... It is a very important buy - get all the information that you can before you stake the money. .

 

[SheepTerrier]

We record ours but find at sales local to us people don't seem that bothered about the figure's, and just wondering how much it that they don't understand them? I would say it's another tool in box to help you make an informed decision in a job where there is so many variants

 

[neilo]

We record ours but find at sales local to us people don't seem that bothered about the figure's, and just wondering how much it that they don't understand them? I would say it's another tool in box to help you make an informed decision in a job where there is so many variants

Exactly right imo, it’s another tool in the box so why not use it?

Personally I won’t look at a ram without figures these days if I can help it, although it’s not really an option with the Beltexes. Even at a base level, it can show that a breeder actually considers that measuring and selecting on performance has more relevance than whether an animal’s granny won a beauty parade judged by the owner’s best mate. Obviously that’s not always the case though, as some ‘recorded’ breeders don’t actually use it, just belong so that they can say that their (all too often below average sheep) are performance recorded.

 

[Ysgythan]

Just wondering how many of you look for performance recorded rams when you are buying? Do you think that it a major thing or do you think its a waste of time?

As a seller it’s a waste of time. Some will tell you they’ve built up good customer bases but that’s niche. Don’t tell them, but the same amount of effort to non EBV selling could build up just as good a customer base.

The Texels have rebased their EBVs this year. What a shambles. Just when buyers were getting their heads around it, it all changes. I’ve seen farmers hand writing in the old indexes on Signet graphs.

 

[gatepost]

As a Seller I sadly agree with @Ysgythan , very little interest, very little interest in ram compare results, lots of interest in trimmed sheep, trimmed Texel ring at Builth, but that said I buy some non recorded stock tups and almost always they have had lower growth rates and muscle depths than the recorded ones, which does point towards recording as a positive,

 

[ford4000]

I've bought a few innovis aberfields who would be at the top of their recording figures, and they are always in good condition, and the lambs grow and fatten well too, so last year I bought an average looking texel ram lamb with high indexes from a good breeder, and turned him with my texel ewes. They've given me the best lambs I've had in years!!

off grass alone, running with the commercial ewes and lambs.
Unfortunately that tup died!! (typical) so I've just bought another recorded tup. Top 1% index and growth, top 25% for fat and muscle. Proof of the pudding will be his lambs next year

 

[Tim W]

I would think that the selling of performance recorded stock is a bit beyond niche
We sell 100 maternal rams a year to people who demand EBVs
Innovis sell many more recorded rams

Speak to anyone in any other sector (pigs/dairy/poultry) & they wouldn't think of buying something that is going to have a large influence on their output with knowing something about the projected performance ---sheep farmers may be slower in the take up but they are getting the idea and liking the results
But breeders have to learn about selling ----and that's a new skill for most farmers (we are after all price takers most of the time)

 

[primmiemoo]

Bit of both. Much more likely to buy a terminal sire with figures, but things have to be much more nuanced with maternal breeds.

There's a maternal breed that seems to have suppressed (I hope it's not bred out) traits for prolificacy and milkiness by selecting rams on growth rate, muscle depth, and other terminal traits in those offered at sales.
A ram is c.50% of his daughters, and a good female line can't correct a problem from the ram side without its being continued by rams recorded for strong maternal traits.

 

[Woolless]

I have found that folk who come to buy off-farm like that the tups are recorded but once they have established that they are off a decent standard on EBVs, they tend to buy what they like the look of. Having said that, a repeat customer who took the above approach last year was desperate to come and buy the three highest index tups this time, having seen the difference in his lambs this year.

 

[Ysgythan]

I would think that the selling of performance recorded stock is a bit beyond niche
We sell 100 maternal rams a year to people who demand EBVs
Innovis sell many more recorded rams

Speak to anyone in any other sector (pigs/dairy/poultry) & they wouldn't think of buying something that is going to have a large influence on their output with knowing something about the projected performance ---sheep farmers may be slower in the take up but they are getting the idea and liking the results
But breeders have to learn about selling ----and that's a new skill for most farmers (we are after all price takers most of the time)

100 rams is niche. Sorry.

 

[Tim W]

100 rams is niche. Sorry.

My 100 rams may not be much but coupled with everyone else's recorded stock sales it's certainly not niche
As would be indicated by the present survey results with 86% of respondents using recorded rams

 

[Ysgythan]

My 100 rams may not be much but coupled with everyone else's recorded stock sales it's certainly not niche
As would be indicated by the present survey results with 86% of respondents using recorded rams

That’s like saying caviar isn’t niche because it’s sold in Harrods and that’s a supermarket...

 

[Agrivator]

I have found that folk who come to buy off-farm like that the tups are recorded but once they have established that they are off a decent standard on EBVs, they tend to buy what they like the look of. Having said that, a repeat customer who took the above approach last year was desperate to come and buy the three highest index tups this time, having seen the difference in his lambs this year.

He was desperate to come in and buy the three highest index tups????

Not very street wise!!!!!

 

[Ysgythan]

He was desperate to come in and buy the three highest index tups????

Not very street wise!!!!!

You may jest, but that’s the problem. Streetwise buyers don’t want to appear to keen and ask before buying.

 

[andybk]

From a breeders point of view recording is very important what ever way or how you do it ,taking your flock forward one step at a time , but from a buyers point of view your only ever going to be buying the potential from the average of the flock your buying from even if you bought the highest index tup at the sale , the genetics will immediately be watered down by the ewes by 50% ,unless you can build in some dominance by line-breeding a bit .and thats still a taboo subject for most ram breeders
as highlighted above , once your buyer trusts your system of selection taking your flock forwards , they will just tend to pick on eye. using a single overall index as marketing tool sort of sends the wrong message to commercial farmers of high number mean its a better sheep regardless of how that came about ,