Performance recorded rams

[hendrebc]

Our breed has gone down the line of publishing all recorded sheep’s figures in the catalogue, good or bad, which certainly makes for interesting reading for a ‘pedigree geek’ sometimes. In the sale pens however, you often only see a couple of cards for the best figured ones. I can’t imagine why.
I did see a catalogue recently where all the sheep in one breeder’s pen were well below average, which made me wonder why he bothered, just to promote his sheep as ‘below average’. To his credit, the feed regime and trimming did make them look like useful sheep.

Apart from at our Premier Sale, if I’m attending a sale, I tend to just print an A4 sheet out with all the rams’ ebvs on one sheet and put it on the board. The info is there for those interested, and I will of course discuss it and point potential buyers in that direction, but I really cba stapling up a whole pile of pretty Signet cards for each one.
I would suggest that most enlightened buyers would be more likely to be sourcing rams on farm, where they can get a much better idea of the breeder’s methods and the management regime the rams have been on. Most buying at auction will still generally be rewarding skilled turnout.

I hadn't really thought about it till this year. I went to a lleyn sale and someone had put a couple of cards up of top 25% ranked ones in their pen. But there were more rams than there were cards which looked to me like the rest of the rams in the pen had not so good figures and they didn't want to advertise them

 

[neilo]

Great response! I understand that one of the AFBI flocks is in Ramcompare and may link some Sheep Ireland data with UK so it may not be completely out of the question.

There were also discussions about using common genetics in both schemes to create more linkage, in the same way that the old sire reference schemes did. In reality, numerous rams from recorded flocks have been used in flocks that are recorded with Sheep Ireland, so the linkage is probably already being built steadily anyway.

 

[neilo]

I record here and always try buy a recorded ram when buying. While wouldnt make me buy a ram it would stop me tbh.

But in situation now totally confused and not sure which way it flows. Here we have Sheep Ireland recording with vast majority of pedigree flocks involved and good cpt setup. Issue is I’ve bought two top 5% signet rams past few years and neither have transferred well to our recording system & one especially is maternal brother to a highly used signet ram so would have high accuracies on signet. Neither is due to prodigy which tbh are limited here yet but more with relatives within system I think. Have bought a 3rd high Signet ram this year, if similar issues wouldn’t be using Signet again in any decisions when buying a potential stock ram.

Was that maternal brother in the top 5%? I’d be surprised if he was, as he was by a relatively low index ram, from a line that hasn’t done very well in terms of muscle depth on Signet (& by my handling of sons’ loins, but what do I know). That maternal brother, of which I was a joint owner, also performed well above expectations from his pedigree, as thankfully happens sometimes, allowing us to make jumps forward occasionally.
Have you checked your ram’s recent Signet ebvs, having had more data from siblings added to the analysis? I seem to remember he was from the first crop of lambs by a ram that had been bought at Builth from an unrecorded flock (& certainly not the one I’d have had from that pen), whose paternal sibs have all been quite underwhelming, in terms of muscle depth at least.

I’m not knocking your sheep, just trying to explain why he may not have done as well as you might of hoped/expected.

 

[gatepost]

I hadn't really thought about it till this year. I went to a lleyn sale and someone had put a couple of cards up of top 25% ranked ones in their pen. But there were more rams than there were cards which looked to me like the rest of the rams in the pen had not so good figures and they didn't want to advertise them

That's the draw back with recording, if your truthful your going to get some that are not so good, especially if you are using some non recorded stock , which might have physical attributes you want /need, so why bother and advertise the fact they are below av on paper, when there is no information available for all the unrecorded sheep anyhow.

 

[Sandpit Farm]

The question could also be that an average recorded animal could perform much better than an animal without figures... how could we know?

I guess it is like saying the average player in a basketball team is likely to be better at basketball than the average person on the street?!

 

[neilo]

The question could also be that an average recorded animal could perform much better than an animal without figures... how could we know?

I guess it is like saying the average player in a basketball team is likely to be better at basketball than the average person on the street?!

Just because an animal is recorded doesn’t make it any better, just that there is some information to record it’s performance. Similarly, just because an animal hasn’t been recorded, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s inferior, just that you are picking with a blindfold on.

I’ve been telling myself that for years, but have to admit that i’ve Had my fingers burnt buying unrecorded rams so many times, having then measured their progeny’s performance, that I am far less willing to take that punt now.

 

[Joe]

Was that maternal brother in the top 5%? I’d be surprised if he was, as he was by a relatively low index ram, from a line that hasn’t done very well in terms of muscle depth on Signet (& by my handling of sons’ loins, but what do I know). That maternal brother, of which I was a joint owner, also performed well above expectations from his pedigree, as thankfully happens sometimes, allowing us to make jumps forward occasionally.
Have you checked your ram’s recent Signet ebvs, having had more data from siblings added to the analysis? I seem to remember he was from the first crop of lambs by a ram that had been bought at Builth from an unrecorded flock (& certainly not the one I’d have had from that pen), whose paternal sibs have all been quite underwhelming, in terms of muscle depth at least.

I’m not knocking your sheep, just trying to explain why he may not have done as well as you might of hoped/expected.

No get ya, he was top 5% on the day he was bought and tbh has actually breed very well with super muscle in his lambs and he’s a smashing sheep. Must check his data now actually and see if much movement

 

[gatepost]

Just because an animal is recorded doesn’t make it any better, just that there is some information to record it’s performance. Similarly, just because an animal hasn’t been recorded, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s inferior, just that you are picking with a blindfold on.

I’ve been telling myself that for years, but have to admit that i’ve Had my fingers burnt buying unrecorded rams so many times, having then measured their progeny’s performance, that I am far less willing to take that punt now.

Me too, however I haven't found what I in theory needed this year, so have had to hit the blind path, also bought some oven gloves. (I will be using the senior ram who's in top 1% for loin depth/width/length over as many as he can manage though) oh and as a bonus he actually looks like a Texel

 

[Sandpit Farm]

Just because an animal is recorded doesn’t make it any better, just that there is some information to record it’s performance. Similarly, just because an animal hasn’t been recorded, doesn’t necessarily mean it’s inferior, just that you are picking with a blindfold on.

I’ve been telling myself that for years, but have to admit that i’ve Had my fingers burnt buying unrecorded rams so many times, having then measured their progeny’s performance, that I am far less willing to take that punt now.

Yes totally agree. I don't think we would ever know though... because we would need to know how the average 'unrecorded' animal performs. I guess my point was that if a breed records and the average Index in the benchmark for that breed increases year on year, the population must be improving. So is it fair to say that an average animal from a recorded population of breeds that have been recording for many years ought to perform better than an average animal from an unrecorded population.... you just don't know if that animal is average.

 

[Ysgythan]

I guess my point was that if a breed records and the average Index in the benchmark for that breed increases year on year, the population must be improving.

Or, more are being recorded so the progress comes simply from more linkages.

 

[gatepost]

Or, more are being recorded so the progress comes simply from more linkages.

Possibly, the problem is finding sheep with really good muscling through their tops, and unfortunately in general the unrecorded stock, from folk who don't really care so long as its at 12 o'clock on sale day, would in my long and somewhat tortuous experience be well below par, whereas the opposite seems to be true with stock from homes where there has been a genuine desire to improve , but charlatans abound either way.

 

[SteveHants]

I think recording in sheep will continue to catch up, but it's a long way behind.

Pigs have been recorded for a long time, and have a shorter generation time, so that improvement can be attained more quickly. PICtrac is a massive database and draws on both phenotypic and genotypic information see: https://www.pic.com/services/data-capture/
Customers are confident enough in the EBVs that they will buy semen based on them, none will ever see the boar in question. PIC are so confident of increased profitability that they run a scheme known as "profit plus" whereby you get access to the highest EBV terminal sire semen. Doses are charged at a "base rate" and the company takes a percentage of your profit on each animal - that is how confident they are. It'd be interesting to see if any sheep breeder could/would offer that!

There are slight differences though - pig breeders are only interested in the overall EBV "score", because inputs are all controlled. Sheep breeders do need to look at the whole EBV chart to get an animal for their system. The other difference is that the pig industry doesn't attract subsidy in the same way that grazed acres do, so that, plus low margins mean that it has been forced to modernise.

I would never have bought an unrecorded ram, and even then I'd have only bought it from someone I trusted. I can't say that system ever let me down.

 

[andybk]

I think recording in sheep will continue to catch up, but it's a long way behind.


Customers are confident enough in the EBVs that they will buy semen based on them, none will ever see the boar in question. PIC are so confident of increased profitability that they run a scheme known as "profit plus" whereby you get access to the highest EBV terminal sire semen. Doses are charged at a "base rate" and the company takes a percentage of your profit on each animal - that is how confident they are. It'd be interesting to see if any sheep breeder could/would offer that!

French have done that for decades in both sheep and cattle , individual breeds run progeny trials , on condition semen from best performers based on figures scanning and visual performance is available to all participants in the recording scheme at a discount . this has accelerated improvement across livestock sector , the charollais for instance take back in house about 5 rams a year for all to use combined with historical good performers , all ones not making the cut are offered for open auction each year .

 

[neilo]

French have done that for decades in both sheep and cattle , individual breeds run progeny trials , on condition semen from best performers based on figures scanning and visual performance is available to all participants in the recording scheme at a discount . this has accelerated improvement across livestock sector , the charollais for instance take back in house about 5 rams a year for all to use combined with historical good performers , all ones not making the cut are offered for open auction each year .

Playing Devil's Advocate, would that go some way towards explaining the leg faults that the French Charollais tend to have, compared to the more correct British ones? Where there is a little more emphasis on looks and breeding for correctness, those leg faults get culled out.

I'm all for selection on recorded performance, but I have also seen some shockers that have come out of people breeding just from a text book an chasing numbers. Functionality has to come first when most sheep are finished in grazing fields, rather than in feed lots.

 

[andybk]

Playing Devil's Advocate, would that go some way towards explaining the leg faults that the French Charollais tend to have, compared to the more correct British ones? Where there is a little more emphasis on looks and breeding for correctness, those leg faults get culled out.

I'm all for selection on recorded performance, but I have also seen some shockers that have come out of people breeding just from a text book an chasing numbers. Functionality has to come first when most sheep are finished in grazing fields, rather than in feed lots.

no not many in feed lots even the testing station ones get 1kg of feed a day and are run on pasture ,(how many kg of food are most ped charollais lambs on in uk between 8 and 16 weeks old ? ) most are run as part of a mixed farm enterprise with charollais cattle , and feet are surprisingly good as are teeth (thats so 80s lol ) the irish buyers for last 20 years sorted that issue out , their main issue is not very straight backs and an element of baldy ones though mainly patches like the "beltex peelers" , performance wise and my experience i still think they are way ahead of correct uk stock . signet ones i used were quite poor .

 

[Ysgythan]

Playing Devil's Advocate, would that go some way towards explaining the leg faults that the French Charollais tend to have, compared to the more correct British ones? Where there is a little more emphasis on looks and breeding for correctness, those leg faults get culled out.

I'm all for selection on recorded performance, but I have also seen some shockers that have come out of people breeding just from a text book an chasing numbers. Functionality has to come first when most sheep are finished in grazing fields, rather than in feed lots.

???

 

[neilo]

no not many in feed lots even the testing station ones get 1kg of feed a day and are run on pasture ,(how many kg of food are most ped charollais lambs on in uk between 8 and 16 weeks old ? ) most are run as part of a mixed farm enterprise with charollais cattle , and feet are surprisingly good as are teeth (thats so 80s lol ) the irish buyers for last 20 years sorted that issue out , their main issue is not very straight backs and an element of baldy ones though mainly patches like the "beltex peelers" , performance wise and my experience i still think they are way ahead of correct uk stock . signet ones i used were quite poor .

Ad-lib on pasture would be about 2kg/hd/day ime. 1kg/hd would be a far higher level than most uk finished lambs get, which I was referring to, as opposed to how ‘pedigree’ lambs might be kept.

 

[andybk]

Ad-lib on pasture would be about 2kg/hd/day ime. 1kg/hd would be a far higher level than most uk finished lambs get, which I was referring to, as opposed to how ‘pedigree’ lambs might be kept.

well the ones in the test i refer to , would be pedigree , the same as uk signet pedigree ones that are recorded , what level of feed are they on here 4-5 kg ? comparing eggs with eggs , commercially ram compare in uk last few years , the french have done exactly the same since 1976 to get male and female indexes terminal and maternal sires , over 000s of ewes

 

[Ysgythan]

Just had a look at the catalogue for ring 13 in Builth NSA. 15 recorded flocks out of 50. Out and out commercial sale with the odd pedigree buyer, and even they would be shearling producers looking to sell crossing tups. 30%

Lanark sale ram lambs, unashamed chasers of the pedigree dream - 43 out of 207. 20%

So if we take the rate as an indication of the market in action, commercial buyers don’t care so pedigree breeders care even less.

Forget your niches, this is where it’s at.

 

[neilo]

Just had a look at the catalogue for ring 13 in Builth NSA. 15 recorded flocks out of 50. Out and out commercial sale with the odd pedigree buyer, and even they would be shearling producers looking to sell crossing tups. 30%

Lanark sale ram lambs, unashamed chasers of the pedigree dream - 43 out of 207. 20%

So if we take the rate as an indication of the market in action, commercial buyers don’t care so pedigree breeders care even less.

Forget your niches, this is where it’s at.

You’re of course making the assumption that all ‘commercial buyers’ choose to go to the likes of Builth to buy their rams. Numbers sold at that sale, compared to ten years ago, would rather indicate that’s not the case.

In that time, the likes of a Innovis have managed to attract lots of customers through extensive marketing, with tales of forage reared recorded rams, and managed to persuade a good few of them to pay through the nose for the privilege.