I would agree, I suppose what in reality has been observed is the use and chasing of an end index for advertising/sale purposes rather than a simple assessment of a rams genetic ability in certain traits, not much different to who has the biggest bank balance at Lanark or who has the biggest ram at Builth or the sharpest shears at Kelso, those of us who for some bazaar reason are just interested in breeding sheep, just fall into the hinterland.
Performance recorded rams
- Thread starter SheepTerrier
- Start date
Yes, and like those circuses it means nothing unless they perform. Perhaps the mistake we make is to think they’ll perform if you move them between tents...
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
I believe the recipient ewes are treated as though they are third crop ewes initially, but have their own indexes generated as the data from the lambs they are rearing enters the system. That will have limited accuracy, until they have reared several lambs and there are lambs with similar genetics reared on several recips.
In any event, the ET lambs are treated as a separate contemporary group, much as twins out of mature ewes would be for example, so their performance is compared against other ET lambs firstly, with reference to genetic links with sheep in other contemporary groups and flocks.
One place where there is little accuracy imo, is 8 wk wt ebvs (ewe’s milking ability mostly) where there are generations of ET progeny, all reared on recipient ewes. Over time, as those genetics get more widespread use over other contemporary groups, that accuracy increases, but I take those ebvs with a pinch of salt from certain flocks.
Accuracy (which is published) of ET lambs’ ebvs will also be limited where they are bought in embryos, with no genetic links with the rearing flock. Where the donor ewes are ewes from that flock that have performed well, or from well linked families that have consistently performed well (surely the best choice of donor if you’re serious about the benefits of recording?), then plenty of linkage exists, making the ebvs far more accurate predictions ime.
And naturally giving higher indexes as a result.
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
You say it exposes limitations of the pre RamCompare system, but I would suggest the extra data generated further improves on it.
It’s still not perfect, and never will be, but it’s still better than just going by visual appearance and ‘who’s got the biggest lamb’. It’s another tool in the box, that’s all.
If I crossed a high performance ram over a high performance ewe, then I would hope and expect to get high performance progeny. If the system works at all, then those high performance progeny should have higher indexes, which are usually borne out by the ebvs once those ET lambs’ progeny data enters the system ime.
If you put a ram with impressive nostrils over a ewe with impressive nostrils, would you not expect the progeny to have most impressive nasal features?
See, this is your mental block. Indexes only tell you limited information about that sheep. It can be a guide to how it will work on a pure recorded ewe of the same breed, but farmers haven’t seen enough benefit from it in crossing situations to create enough demand for performance recorded stock. The reason Ram Compare is an improvement is that there is plenty of room to improve.
I come back to my compulsory point. Whilst it’s voluntary it hasn’t taken off and won’t it won’t fulfil its potential.
If anybody is interested in their EBVs they’ll find them.
- Location
- Olney, north bucks
This is true, but also I would hazard to suggest that the majority selling at major sales are not committed to performance recording and their rams figures would reflect this, so why publish them when their nostrils are so good, and their sire was x thousand they must be worth the same.
I know there are some who successfully record and sell at major sales but they are in the minority.
FJ
I can only suggest that since rebasing , a lot of sheep have been shown up for what they have always been, plain frames at killing wt, this is not entirely the fault of ram breeders, while your commercial man rewards the man with the biggest sale ram, it's simple growth curves 100kg plus shearling rams will never be fit to kill at 40kg, they haven't even started to mature their muscle mass let alone put down any fat, they are still just growing that bone structure.
- Location
- Fife
Because they clearly don’t feel they’re helping.
We all remember the fatty panter producers who’d never recorded a sheep printing off BASCO screen shots of tups who qualified for the Welsh Government Ram Voucher...
I thought maybe there wouldn't be room under this bridge for the both of us, but it seems we are going to get along fine!
- Location
- Montgomeryshire
I can't 'like' that enough.
They are exactly the type of sheep that have taken a beating with the change to weight adjusted ebvs, and a step forward in terminal sire recording it is IMO.As a buyer who spends upwards of 1000 pound on commercial tups i do not look at any numbers, Identifying a producer whos tups are still alive after 12 months is a good starter, also a tup that does not have to be stuffed to survive, next is vigour and ability to serve combined with an eye for a good sheep on the day.
Then you have feedback off deadweight sheet if you are hitting 60/70% E or U grade and lambs are plentiful the main figure for me is the £ sign
Then you have feedback off deadweight sheet if you are hitting 60/70% E or U grade and lambs are plentiful the main figure for me is the £ sign