Pesticide use in organic farming

[Organic86]

I wanted to reach out to the farming community in the hope that you can educate me on the regulations and practices around use of pesticides in organic agriculture. I'm just a confused consumer and thought this forum might be a good place to seek answers and clarity.

I converted to an organic lifestyle about a year ago, and did so purely because I associated organic food with pesticide free eating, and it supported my wider goal to reduce my exposure to chemicals in all aspects of my life. But I am now questioning the reason behind my decision to choose organic over non-organic produce following a recent conversation with a farmer at my local farmers' market. The farmer's fruit wasn't organic, and when I asked him if he offers any organic alternatives, he told me that it's a "myth" that organic food isn't sprayed with pesticides. He didn't use the word "pesticides," just "sprayed." He said some organic farmers even "spray more" than on his farm and encouraged me to look into it myself.

Getting clarity on this has been extremely difficult, and I am feeling very confused, and misled, and would appreciate your insight, as farmers, and some straight facts! I can only base this concern on hearsay and the multiple articles that I have read, which all claim that the Soil Association permits farmers to use a small number of pesticides on produce, as long as it comes from a "natural" (ie copper sulfate?) rather than a synthetic source. If that is indeed the case, which ones are allowed? I have reached out to the Soil Association anyway and asked for a list of the pesticides that it permits, as I just want transparency, but have hit a wall. If I know the facts, then I can at least make a better, more informed decision about whether organic is still the right way to go for me. Can you please help with some answers? I'd really appreciate your insights. Many thanks.

 

[slackjawedyokel]

Hi Organic86. The truth is out there; it's all there on the Soil Association's website, although it's a bit of a pig of a website; it's often difficult to find what you're looking for. On the grounds that it's best to get answers from the horses mouth, here are the SAs organic standards:
https://www.soilassociation.org/media/1220/farming-and-growing-v17-4-august-2016.pdf
You want to want to look in section 4.11 Controlling pests and disease. On page 80 there starts a short list of substances allowed in organic production, many of which you'd probably consider to be perfectly harmless (fleece barriers, beeswax, sand etc). As you read down the list, you come to products that are more heavily regulated; the farmer has to be granted permission before using them (e.g. Plant derived pyrethrins and ethylene) and over the page to products that may be used, if approved, only when crops are threatened(e.g. Sulphur)
At the bottom of page 81, you will note that it is possible to use copper (oxychloride),with approval but only if there is a major threat to the crop, and its use is further regulated with hoops to jump through as you'll note. also note 4.11.15 - you must NOT use any pesticide or fungicide not on the list.
I think you can probably decide for yourself the truthfulness of your fruitseller.
I've been farming organically since 2002 (beef, sheep and arable, not horticulture or soft fruit I'm afraid), so in that time we've used no sprays on our 450acres. That means no pesticides, fungicides or weed killers.

 

[7610 super q]

You are allowed to use very few, if any. You are audited severely.
You hear nonsense all the time about organic farmers spraying willy nilly (at night).
It's utter rollocks.

 

[Goweresque]

You are allowed to use very few, if any. You are audited severely.
You hear nonsense all the time about organic farmers spraying willy nilly (at night).
It's utter rollocks.

It is amusing (to me at least) that a conventional food producer was impugning the moral integrity of organic producers for a change though..............

 

[Exfarmer]

Perhaps the grower in question was reffering to overseas organic standards. The SA standard is a gold plated premium, however even then does allow some questionable products to be used.
If I was buying organic, I would only ever consider UK sourced food and even then I would suspect, that occasionally standards do slip, there are rogues everywhere.
In other countries! Including Europe I believe, chemicals such as roundup can be applied, to Ensure clean seedbeds before planting.
Further, it. Is fact that a lot of produce has traded its way onto organic listing, having started out on a conventional farm and after crossing a couple of borders miraculously becomes organic
Rather in the way that 4 times as much NZ Manuka honey is sold in Europe than is produced in NZ

 

[slackjawedyokel]

Perhaps the grower in question was reffering to overseas organic standards. The SA standard is a gold plated premium, however even then does allow some questionable products to be used.
If I was buying organic, I would only ever consider UK sourced food and even then I would suspect, that occasionally standards do slip, there are rogues everywhere.
In other countries! Including Europe I believe, chemicals such as roundup can be applied, to Ensure clean seedbeds before planting.
Further, it. Is fact that a lot of produce has traded its way onto organic listing, having started out on a conventional farm and after crossing a couple of borders miraculously becomes organic
Rather in the way that 4 times as much NZ Manuka honey is sold in Europe than is produced in NZ

Ah but that will all be sorted out during Brexit negotiations when we ban all food imports. Right?

 

[Lazy Sod]

There is no such thing as a safe or an unsafe substance, just a safe or an unsafe dose.

 

[Goweresque]

There is no such thing as a safe or an unsafe substance, just a safe or an unsafe dose.

Very true. The dose makes the poison, as the old saying goes. If you drink too much water for example, you die.

 

[SRRC]

Organic86
It's a very interesting question you raise, the trouble is is that there is no clear answer, converting to an "organic" way of life may or may not reduce the amount of pesticide you ingest. And, after all, it's not just food you ought to worry about, perhaps take the time to read the ingredients to the toothpaste you use.
It's a huge subject, some serious science needs to be grasped before proper understanding can be reached. Most of what I hear and read on the subject is woefully superficial. For a starter try Timothy Caulfield's book "Is Gwyneth Paltrow wrong about everything?" https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...twepC6Zlfp06mSe4RKA1ow&bvm=bv.146496531,d.ZGg

 

[Organic86]

Hi Organic86. The truth is out there; it's all there on the Soil Association's website, although it's a bit of a pig of a website; it's often difficult to find what you're looking for. On the grounds that it's best to get answers from the horses mouth, here are the SAs organic standards:
https://www.soilassociation.org/media/1220/farming-and-growing-v17-4-august-2016.pdf
You want to want to look in section 4.11 Controlling pests and disease. On page 80 there starts a short list of substances allowed in organic production, many of which you'd probably consider to be perfectly harmless (fleece barriers, beeswax, sand etc). As you read down the list, you come to products that are more heavily regulated; the farmer has to be granted permission before using them (e.g. Plant derived pyrethrins and ethylene) and over the page to products that may be used, if approved, only when crops are threatened(e.g. Sulphur)
At the bottom of page 81, you will note that it is possible to use copper (oxychloride),with approval but only if there is a major threat to the crop, and its use is further regulated with hoops to jump through as you'll note. also note 4.11.15 - you must NOT use any pesticide or fungicide not on the list.
I think you can probably decide for yourself the truthfulness of your fruitseller.
I've been farming organically since 2002 (beef, sheep and arable, not horticulture or soft fruit I'm afraid), so in that time we've used no sprays on our 450acres. That means no pesticides, fungicides or weed killers.

Thank you so much for the link (I struggled to find this info on the Soil Association's website) and for pointing me in the right direction. Looking at this doc, it has been eye-opening discovering that organic doesn't always mean pesticide-free (if a case has to be made to use them)... but that raises so many questions in my head: what would constitute "a threat" to produce? How common practice is this? Do farmers routinely face threats and have to regularly resort to using approved pesticides, even as a last resort? In other words, how likely is it that I am buying something that has been sprayed, as a last resort?! Perhaps certain types of fruit/veg are affected more than others? If produce is sprayed, I'm still surprised that it would still carry the "organic" logo.

The Soil Association drives home a message on its website that organic means no pesticides https://www.soilassociation.org/what-we-do-1/our-ambition/pesticides and doesn't want to make it easy for us to know the facts.

I'm not trying to attack organic farming here, I just wish there could be more transparency as a whole in this industry and that I could have all the facts.

If some transparency was introduced, in the way of a caveat being written on organic food labelling in the supermarket, that would be a good start, because there is a general assumption that if it's organic, then it's free of pesticides. If you're an organic farmer, are there restrictions on how much you can spray? I'd love to get more insight into this, if anyone else is willing to weigh in. Thanks so much!

 

[Organic86]

Organic86
It's a very interesting question you raise, the trouble is is that there is no clear answer, converting to an "organic" way of life may or may not reduce the amount of pesticide you ingest. And, after all, it's not just food you ought to worry about, perhaps take the time to read the ingredients to the toothpaste you use.
It's a huge subject, some serious science needs to be grasped before proper understanding can be reached. Most of what I hear and read on the subject is woefully superficial. For a starter try Timothy Caulfield's book "Is Gwyneth Paltrow wrong about everything?" https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiLpqbznYPSAhVlD8AKHRUiBGsQFggiMAE&url=https://www.amazon.co.uk/Gwyneth-Paltrow-Wrong-About-Everything/dp/067006758X&usg=AFQjCNHBRr_stwepC6Zlfp06mSe4RKA1ow&bvm=bv.146496531,d.ZGg

It's interesting that you mentioned toothpaste - a few months ago I switched to a fluoride free toothpaste and when I told my dentist, he said: "you may as well be using soap!" And he made a (scientific) case for why fluoride is so important to prevent tooth decay. It's hard to know what to do for the best! Btw thank you for the book link.

 

[Organic86]

Perhaps the grower in question was reffering to overseas organic standards. The SA standard is a gold plated premium, however even then does allow some questionable products to be used.
If I was buying organic, I would only ever consider UK sourced food and even then I would suspect, that occasionally standards do slip, there are rogues everywhere.
In other countries! Including Europe I believe, chemicals such as roundup can be applied, to Ensure clean seedbeds before planting.
Further, it. Is fact that a lot of produce has traded its way onto organic listing, having started out on a conventional farm and after crossing a couple of borders miraculously becomes organic
Rather in the way that 4 times as much NZ Manuka honey is sold in Europe than is produced in NZ

Thanks for your input! The farmer was referring to UK-based farmers, and if that's the case, it could be that they made a successful case to the Soil Association to use a particular chemical?

 

[Exfarmer]

It's interesting that you mentioned toothpaste - a few months ago I switched to a fluoride free toothpaste and when I told my dentist, he said: "you may as well be using soap!" And he made a (scientific) case for why fluoride is so important to prevent tooth decay. It's hard to know what to do for the best! Btw thank you for the book link.

You have listened to the dentist correctly saying that Fluoride is very important in relation to tooth enamel.
Exactly the same case can be made for the use of many products in the conventional farmers armoury.
Crops are only sprayed in the face of particular threats and many , particularly fungicidal attack can pose quite serious risk to human health if the form of spores getting through the food chain. There are also weed seeds which can cause serious harm in real terms compared to the risk of ingesting minute quantities of spray residue.
Indeed many food stuffs have far more carcinogenic or pathological poisonous properties than these residues.
An interesting case is rape. This has been bred in the last 50 years so that certain naturally occuring oils , the glucosilonates ( mustard oils)have been removed from the plant. This has been done so these natural carcinogens are no longer present in the oil which as you will know for food. However these same glucoisolantes are highly valued in our green veg and widely promoted as superfoods

 

[slackjawedyokel]

Thank you so much for the link (I struggled to find this info on the Soil Association's website) and for pointing me in the right direction. Looking at this doc, it has been eye-opening discovering that organic doesn't always mean pesticide-free (if a case has to be made to use them)... but that raises so many questions in my head: what would constitute "a threat" to produce? How common practice is this? Do farmers routinely face threats and have to regularly resort to using approved pesticides, even as a last resort? In other words, how likely is it that I am buying something that has been sprayed, as a last resort?! Perhaps certain types of fruit/veg are affected more than others? If produce is sprayed, I'm still surprised that it would still carry the "organic" logo.

The Soil Association drives home a message on its website that organic means no pesticides https://www.soilassociation.org/what-we-do-1/our-ambition/pesticides and doesn't want to make it easy for us to know the facts.

I'm not trying to attack organic farming here, I just wish there could be more transparency as a whole in this industry and that I could have all the facts.

If some transparency was introduced, in the way of a caveat being written on organic food labelling in the supermarket, that would be a good start, because there is a general assumption that if it's organic, then it's free of pesticides. If you're an organic farmer, are there restrictions on how much you can spray? I'd love to get more insight into this, if anyone else is willing to weigh in. Thanks so much!

Hopefully an organic veg or fruit grower will be along shortly with a bit more knowledge about how widespread the use of these fungicides etc is in U.K. Organic farming. I would however point out that the whole list of products is quite short and some of those don't come into contact with the food itself (e.g. Pheromone insect traps, fly traps), some are things you're probably not going to worry about at all (insect netting and sand), many seem to be derived from plants (clove oil, mint oil, chrysanthemum, neem tree, spinosad), which I suppose many consumers will consider safer because they're 'natural' rather than 'synthesised'. The products that look like they're 'chemicals' (potassium hydrogen carbonate, sulphur, copper compounds) are towards the more strictly regulated end of the scale and I guess many people would see them as OK as they are probably again 'natural' in the sense that you can probably dig them out of the ground somewhere on the planet, rather than chemically synthesising them, and they're fairly basic, uncomplicated chemicals. In the cases of sulphur and copper (as Bordeaux mixture), these are traditional fungicides that have been in use since before the advent of 'the chemical industry' and so many would see them as better than conventional alternatives.
If you cross off the SA list anything that doesn't bother you, compare what remains to the offerings from just two U.K. agrochemical firms:
http://uk.dowagro.com/products/
https://www.syngenta.co.uk/products...?search_api_views_fulltext=&items_per_page=72

 

[Pasty]

OP, I would choose your farmer first. I buy a lot of organic from Riverford and Eversfield and I am confident that they are true to their word. They do adhere to the standard. That said, there are plenty of non organic farmers who will give you what you are looking for. I'm not organic but the eggs I sell are pastured hens, the lamb I will be selling will be pretty much 100% grass fed with no fert or pesticides.

So the message I would give is find your farmer. There are plenty out there. Ask them what they do and if they don't want to answer, go to the next one. Good food does not have to be organic. It's a standard which can give you an element of confidence but it can also be abused.

Find your farmer.

 

[7610 super q]

Well, we grew organic spuds and veg for 25 years. Only thing we used was copper on the spuds for blight, but stopped using it (A) because it didn't do anything to control blight at all, and (B) it was a palaver trying to get a derogation to use it.

 

[Old McDonald]

But I am now questioning the reason behind my decision to choose organic over non-organic produce following a recent conversation with a farmer at my local farmers' market.

I like the idea of not using fungicides and pesticides, but unfortunatley could not produce what I do without them. My main crop is olives, and might be almonds within a few years depending upon whether I plant more trees of either. I would not use organic olive oil.

It is almost impossible to keep olive fly larvae out of olives even with insecticides Without them the fruit is riddled with holes and contain larvae when harvested. These go into the oil. These holes are then an opportunity for Colletotrichum gloeosporioides to enter the fruit. It has been spelled differently in the past, or someone mistypes it - easy done. In Portugal it is known as Gafa, much easier. Sometimes it is called anthracnose which is somewhat similar and also caused by various Collet. species which attack many of the fruits we eat. Olives can be, and probably are, affected by these other species. If you saw the raw material which goes into oil and juices from fruit affected by these things you would stop using it.

Many olive growers are organic by default rather than by purpose - ie they do not have a sprayer and so do not spray.

I found a few almond flower-to-be at the pink point stage today - the flower bud is unopened, but a tiny piece of pink is just showing in the centre. It is almost time to apply the first fungicide of the season. Without spraying it is possible to lose the entire crop to green fruit rot which is caused by various nasties that also have interesting names. Here is a description of what happens from UCDavies. The link does not work.:-

Green fruit rot begins during the latter part of the bloom period when the fungus infects senescing petals and anthers. Infected petals develop water-soaked brown spots. Some infected petals may fall onto leaves causing secondary infections. Anther infections can spread to floral tubes or flower jackets causing them to wither and stick to developing fruit. As fruit sets and starts to grow, a brown spot develops where the jacket sticks to it. This is particularly a problem where nut clusters trap senescing flower parts. Frequently this leads to rot of entire nut clusters.

I would guess that most farmers are like me and use as few sprays as we can. Sprays cost money and time to apply, therefore reduce any profit, or increase any loss.

 

[SoilMan]

Surely looking for nutrient dense food would be more beneficial than pesticide free. Chemicals should be used in moderation but they are generally used only when needed. There must be a better arguement to grow or source food that contains more of the actual nutrients your body needs.

 

[Old McDonald]

@SoilMan I remember looking into this a few years ago, guessing at 6 to 8, and it appeared from a few research papers (some of which were perhaps dubious in their methods) that vegetables that were more slowly grown were more nutrient dense than those which grew quickly. The suggestion, not a proven theory, was that slower grown vegetables had more nutrients on a weight for weight basis, but had tougher leaves too. I think some of them were trying to show that organic was superior to conventional. It was also suggested that longer season "heritage" varieties were more nutrient dense than F1 varieties. No idea if more research has been done.

 

[Old Boar]

I was suprised to learn yesterday that rice contains quite high levels of arsenic, so if you eat it often, the levels build up. Apparently soaking it overnight and cooking it in a lot of water is the answer to dropping the levels. So whatever you eat, someone will find a problem with it. I agree with @Pasty - by all means visit the farmers market and then go and visit the farm. Honest farmers/stallholders will be willing to show you how their produce is grown and produced.