Pesticide use in organic farming

[Simon Chiles]

I was suprised to learn yesterday that rice contains quite high levels of arsenic, so if you eat it often, the levels build up. Apparently soaking it overnight and cooking it in a lot of water is the answer to dropping the levels. So whatever you eat, someone will find a problem with it. I agree with @Pasty - by all means visit the farmers market and then go and visit the farm. Honest farmers/stallholders will be willing to show you how their produce is grown and produced.

I think apple pips also contain high levels of arsenic, I always eat the lot thinking that it was a natural anthelmintic. Tannin can do the same job. A neighbouring farmer never has to worm his lambs as he sticks them on fields with high clover content, btw he's not organic.

@Organic86, Welcome to the forum, I must congratulate you for trying to find out more about your food and engaging with it's producers. We are all very proud of the quality of the food we produce but you'll find that we probably all have differing opinions. I ought to add that you would class me as a conventional farmer ( uses chemicals ) however I'm amongst a growing band of farmers who have decided that there are better ways forward and like all things in life often a compromise is the best solution, I call it working with nature rather than fighting against it. More generally it's called conservation agriculture. However even on this forum you'll find much debate about the subject. I think I ought to point out that no farmer uses anywhere near the max dose of chemicals, they are far too expensive and the margins to tight for it to be economic. I regard chemicals as plant health products, I need a healthy plant to produce the maximum yield free of toxins, some of which like mycotoxin and ergot would be very bad for you. However, sadly, I don't think you are ever really going to find out much about your food until there is proper food labelling ( the only thing we do all agree on ) because quite frankly the system is at best misleading and possibly fraudulent. Food processors are able to source from all around the world, stick it through a factory and then label it as produced in the UK and don't even get us started on the subject of fictitious farm names invented by supermarkets.
The best solution is probably to find a local producer whether organic or not and buy directly from them. Most would be proud to show you around their farm so that you get a feel for the effort that goes into food production.
Good luck with your quest.

 

[Old McDonald]

I was suprised to learn yesterday that rice contains quite high levels of arsenic, so if you eat it often, the levels build up.

I saw the same, or a similar, article earlier this morning before I logged on here. It seems the problem arises (mainly from Bangladeshi rice?) because it is grown as wetland rice. I have not done any checking, but on that basis it suggests that dryland rice will not have the same problem.

I know dryland crops are grown along the eastern coast side of Australia, some parts of Africa (cannot remember where) and parts of USA. I am not certain but am fairly sure that European rice production is also classified as dryland. Production here in Portugal is mainly at the lower end of large rivers and so the land may be flooded for part of the winter.

The same is probably true of Italy and Spain where rice is grown - some possible flooding in winter. Some other southern European countries also grow rice. Rice consumption is these countries is very high compared with the rest of Europe and rice has been grown for many centuries.

 

[Organic86]

I think apple pips also contain high levels of arsenic, I always eat the lot thinking that it was a natural anthelmintic. Tannin can do the same job. A neighbouring farmer never has to worm his lambs as he sticks them on fields with high clover content, btw he's not organic.

@Organic86, Welcome to the forum, I must congratulate you for trying to find out more about your food and engaging with it's producers. We are all very proud of the quality of the food we produce but you'll find that we probably all have differing opinions. I ought to add that you would class me as a conventional farmer ( uses chemicals ) however I'm amongst a growing band of farmers who have decided that there are better ways forward and like all things in life often a compromise is the best solution, I call it working with nature rather than fighting against it. More generally it's called conservation agriculture. However even on this forum you'll find much debate about the subject. I think I ought to point out that no farmer uses anywhere near the max dose of chemicals, they are far too expensive and the margins to tight for it to be economic. I regard chemicals as plant health products, I need a healthy plant to produce the maximum yield free of toxins, some of which like mycotoxin and ergot would be very bad for you. However, sadly, I don't think you are ever really going to find out much about your food until there is proper food labelling ( the only thing we do all agree on ) because quite frankly the system is at best misleading and possibly fraudulent. Food processors are able to source from all around the world, stick it through a factory and then label it as produced in the UK and don't even get us started on the subject of fictitious farm names invented by supermarkets.
The best solution is probably to find a local producer whether organic or not and buy directly from them. Most would be proud to show you around their farm so that you get a feel for the effort that goes into food production.
Good luck with your quest.

Thank you so much for the insight into your farming practices! I wasn't expecting so many replies and they have given me lots to think about and look into further! I live near Guildford in Surrey and would love to source as much of my fruit and veg locally from a responsible farm - if there are any local-ish farmers out there who can help here! I would much rather buy direct through a farmer than through a supermarket, as I am sure many consumers would. I have stopped buying supermarket meat and the little meat that I do buy is from my local butcher (where not all of it is sourced locally, but at least the butcher can tell me which farm it comes from). And yes what we need is proper food labelling. I am going to contact my local Waitrose about this (because Waitrose has a huge own-brand organic range and their own farms, so it seems like a good starting point?)

 

[Organic86]

I saw the same, or a similar, article earlier this morning before I logged on here. It seems the problem arises (mainly from Bangladeshi rice?) because it is grown as wetland rice. I have not done any checking, but on that basis it suggests that dryland rice will not have the same problem.

I know dryland crops are grown along the eastern coast side of Australia, some parts of Africa (cannot remember where) and parts of USA. I am not certain but am fairly sure that European rice production is also classified as dryland. Production here in Portugal is mainly at the lower end of large rivers and so the land may be flooded for part of the winter.

The same is probably true of Italy and Spain where rice is grown - some possible flooding in winter. Some other southern European countries also grow rice. Rice consumption is these countries is very high compared with the rest of Europe and rice has been grown for many centuries.

I only buy organic rice because of the arsenic

OP, I would choose your farmer first. I buy a lot of organic from Riverford and Eversfield and I am confident that they are true to their word. They do adhere to the standard. That said, there are plenty of non organic farmers who will give you what you are looking for. I'm not organic but the eggs I sell are pastured hens, the lamb I will be selling will be pretty much 100% grass fed with no fert or pesticides.

So the message I would give is find your farmer. There are plenty out there. Ask them what they do and if they don't want to answer, go to the next one. Good food does not have to be organic. It's a standard which can give you an element of confidence but it can also be abused.

Find your farmer.

Yes - definately! Any farmers in the Cranleigh - Guildford - Godalming area reading this by any chance?

 

[Pasty]

Have you got a food assembly in your area? Not sure if the concept is still running but it is a good one.

 

[Storeman]

I only buy organic rice because of the arsenic


Yes - definately! Any farmers in the Cranleigh - Guildford - Godalming area reading this by any chance?

Organic rice still has arsenic in it. The arsenic originates in the soil. As the crop is grown in water, the arsenic is more available to be taken up by the plant. Organic will make no difference.

 

[Old McDonald]

I only buy organic rice because of the arsenic

As already posted by Storeman that is not going to help you. I would like to know why you think it would. Buying dryland rice, as grown in the places I listed, and probably others too, might help reduce your intake..

 

[Exfarmer]

As already posted by Storeman that is not going to help you. I would like to know why you think it would. Buying dryland rice, as grown in the places I listed, and probably others too, might help reduce your intake..

If you google, rice and arsenic, you will find much disinformation, or to give it the latest name, fake news.
This disseminated by the usual people blames modern farming, pesticides and fertiliser for the problem.
God help the next generation bought up to believe the internet knows all!

 

[Old McDonald]

@ex-farmer, the referenced article did not though. It explained that the arsenic was taken up by the rice plants grown in wetland production. The arsenic naturally occurs in the soil. The use of pesticides and fertilisers has nothing to do with the problem.

I completely agree that there is an enormous amount of straightforward lies on the internet. You are being very generous to the perpetrators in calling it disinformation.

 

[Exfarmer]

@ex-farmer, the referenced article did not though. It explained that the arsenic was taken up by the rice plants grown in wetland production. The arsenic naturally occurs in the soil. The use of pesticides and fertilisers has nothing to do with the problem.

I completely agree that there is an enormous amount of straightforward lies on the internet. You are being very generous to the perpetrators in calling it disinformation.

I actually had looked on line , before this thread came up, regarding rice and Arsenic and my first search produced a piece about the use of Pesticides and fertiliser causing this.
Certain political groups have been honing their skills in misinformation for a very long time!

 

[dstudent]

I actually had looked on line , before this thread came up, regarding rice and Arsenic and my first search produced a piece about the use of Pesticides and fertiliser causing this.
Certain political groups have been honing their skills in misinformation for a very long time!

I found some articles about this, just a first glance, it is found in nature on many plants and in soil, it can be exacerbated by pollution. I will look for more evidence, as I did not know about this, not that I m particularly concerned as I alway add a lot of water, but what about steaming the rice? Any one knows?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/38910848
https://authoritynutrition.com/arsenic-in-rice/

 

[david]

Copper Oxy now banned, probably because of its toxicity to humans.

 

[Exfarmer]

Copper Oxy now banned, probably because of its toxicity to humans.

Copper has been banned for non organic farmers for possibly 20 years due to its effect on invertebrates.
It is odd that organic producers have still had access to a product which is highly toxic to the environment, its not very good to humans at high concentrations either, although it has long been used as a very effective wormer.

 

[david]

Copper Oxy had quite a long list of authorisations for veg crops until last year. Used to suppress bacterial diseases on brassicas and onions in particular.

 

[Y Fan Wen]

'my wider goal to reduce my exposure to chemicals in all aspects of my life.'

I wonder what the cupboard under your sink looks like?

 

[Old McDonald]

Copper Oxy now banned, probably because of its toxicity to humans.

Is that only for "organic" producers, or everybody in the UK? It is one of the most effective anti fungal chemicals in general use and a very low risk of a resistance build up.

From ex-farmer's response it appears to be general? Why? It is used widely in Europe for fungal diseases and has been for a very long time. I do not know offhand when Bordeaux Mixture was first introduced, but it is still used today, and the ingredients can be bought, mixed, and used by those who do not need a spraying certificate as we do for many other sprays we use. I know someone who made it up last year because he is not authorised to buy the ready made product that does the same anti-fungal treatment.

Certainly in high concentrations it can be a problem for animals, but copper is added to many (most?) livestock rations, so what is the problem?

 

[Organic86]

Have you got a food assembly in your area? Not sure if the concept is still running but it is a good one.

I have looked into this and unfortunately there isn't one in my local area (thank you for the idea though!) I have just discovered a local organic veggie box scheme which isn't widely advertised, called "Greener Greens" - they sell a lot of local produce but not all (some from Egypt I see! :/). I have also made contact with a farm in Alton which has not used pesticides in their history of organic farming,.. they are 25 miles away, but it's a good start!

 

[Flat 10]

I am not for a moment saying there was anything untoward or not approved but my local very large salad /veg grower had a separate sprayer for the organic, perhaps it was required by the rules. Anyway it was a large trailed and it was busy ! So something was being applied regularly.