Petition on criminalising trespass

[House of Commons]

The House of Commons Petitions Committee (a cross-party group of MPs) have scheduled a debate on a petition relating to trespass. The petition calls on the Government to abandon its manifesto pledge to make trespass a criminal offence.

The Committee want to hear about your experiences:

• Has the operation of your farm been impacted by trespassers in the past? If so, how?
• How would the criminalisation of trespass affect your work, your farm and/or your local community?

Answers posted on this thread before midday on 11 January will be passed on to the Committee, and used to inform the debate.

Speak to an MP:

The Committee member leading the debate, Katherine Fletcher MP, would also like to discuss this issue in more detail with farmers. If you would like to join an online call with Katherine and other farmers at 5pm on Tuesday 5 January, please contact [email protected] for details.

Further info:

The debate is scheduled for 4.30pm on 25 January in Westminster Hall. We will update this thread with links to watch it and read the transcript when they are available.

Criminal vs civil law - Trespass is currently a matter of civil law, which is concerned with the rights and property of individual people. Civil law settles disputes between people and organisations and often involves compensation being paid. If trespass was made a criminal offence, someone suspected of trespass could be arrested by the police and prosecuted by the state, potentially resulting in a jail sentence and a criminal record.
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Please note: Your name, and any information or opinions you provide, may be shared with the Petitions Committee and used in a Parliamentary proceedings or written material which will be on the record and available on Parliament TV, Hansard and the Parliament website. Please ensure that you are happy with your comment before sharing.

 

[Danllan]

This is ridiculous, what are the parameters? If all 'trespass' were to be criminalised, anyone turning around using another person's driveway would be guilty, and there are countless other examples as ridiculous.

Far better the definition of an Aggravated Trespass - already a Criminal offence - be changed / widened.

 

[Pan mixer]

I had a numpty come round with a video camera one night to film my pigs in secret, he edited together a very passionate video on cruelty (which was later found to be no cruelty at all by several august organisations) and tried to sell it to the press. (Unsuccessfully)

The worst part was that he then went - or had been, we never found out which, onto neighbouring pig farms and did the same thing on 2 of them, compromising the biosecurity of all 3 units.

Fortunately as far as we know no epidemics of disease broke out on any of our units that time. The Police couldn't prosecute.

On another occaion I discovered a soldier wearing womens undergarments doing something unmentionable to one of my sows - that or the subsequent investigations did bring in pneumonia into our herd and it has been there ever since (30 plus years now) costing us a lot of money in antibiotics and lost growth. Police didn't prosecute.

Several times hare coursers have broken hedges, gone through gateways etc and driven all over standing crops here leaving ruts that are there for years in permanent pasture and causing machinery damage. Police not interested.

 

[Danllan]

I had a numpty come round with a video camera one night to film my pigs in secret, he edited together a very passionate video on cruelty (which was later found to be no cruelty at all by several august organisations) and tried to sell it to the press. (Unsuccessfully)

The worst part was that he then went - or had been, we never found out which, onto neighbouring pig farms and did the same thing on 2 of them, compromising the biosecurity of all 3 units.

Fortunately as far as we know no epidemics of disease broke out on any of our units that time. The Police couldn't prosecute.

On another occaion I discovered a soldier wearing womens undergarments doing something unmentionable to one of my sows - that or the subsequent investigations did bring in pneumonia into our herd and it has been there ever since (30 plus years now) costing us a lot of money in antibiotics and lost growth. Police didn't prosecute.

Several times hare coursers have broken hedges, gone through gateways etc and driven all over standing crops here leaving ruts that are there for years in permanent pasture and causing machinery damage. Police not interested.

Then the police should be told to do their bl**dy job properly, since the individual had committed a criminal offence*. This case isn't good and the consequences could have been very bad, no error; but it doesn't require any more laws, just the proper enforcement of those already extant.


*CJPO 1994 s68 1c and, maybe, 1b too.

 

[Pan mixer]

Then the police should be told to do their bl**dy job properly, since the individual had committed a criminal offence*. This case isn't good and the consequences could have been very bad, no error; but it doesn't require and more laws, just the proper enforcement of those already extant.


*CJPO 1994 s68 1c and, maybe, 1b too.

The police said that he hadn't actually done any criminal damage.

 

[Danllan]

The police said that he hadn't actually done any criminal damage.

And they are probably quite right, but the offence I have cited is Aggravated Trespass, and his actions certainly disrupted your working routine and may have obstructed some work as well. Both of these are 'heads' of Aggravated Trespass. The typical plod doesn't know as much law as you might think - and hope - and often has to be 'encouraged' to apply that which he does know...

 

[primmiemoo]

I'm (probably obviously) not a lawyer, but I don't think that's how the OP is phrased, @Danllan . The petition is to remove the manifesto pledge to criminalise Trespass.
There are plenty whose lives would be easier were Trespass presumed an offence as per the pledge. Fine tuning can come later.

 

[Danllan]

I'm (probably obviously) not a lawyer, but I don't think that's how the OP is phrased, @Danllan . The petition is to remove the manifesto pledge to criminalise Trespass.
There are plenty whose lives would be easier were Trespass presumed an offence as per the pledge. Fine tuning can come later.

Yes... hence my arguing that it being a Criminal Offence would be a bad thing. There are lots of things that would make lots of people's lives easier, yet would be neither practicable nor just and, so, are best not done.

If there is one thing even a mere nodding acquaintanceship with legal history tells us, it is that it is far better to do as much 'fine-tuning' as possible during the legislative process.

 

[Muddyroads]

We have a right of way through the middle of the farm, hard surfaced, fenced off, with gates into fields. We’ve had so many instances of people walking into fields, leaving gates open that they had no right to go through etc. that we’ve had to put combination locks on the gates. We keep Dorset sheep which can breed at any time of the year. As a result of gates being opened and stock mixing, we’ve ended up with sheep lambing when they shouldn’t, to sires who can be related. Other issues of course also crop up from groups of stock being mixed.
We also keep a suckler herd. Although they’re a quiet bunch, it always concerns me that people crossing a field that they shouldn’t be in could stir them up, causing an incident of some kind.
1 guy in particular has the attitude that he can walk wherever he wants around the farm, regardless of how many times he’s told. A gent in his late 60’s, you’d think he’d know better. Threatening him with legal action could be the only thing that has any impact.

 

[Danllan]

We have a right of way through the middle of the farm, hard surfaced, fenced off, with gates into fields. We’ve had so many instances of people walking into fields, leaving gates open that they had no right to go through etc. that we’ve had to put combination locks on the gates. We keep Dorset sheep which can breed at any time of the year. As a result of gates being opened and stock mixing, we’ve ended up with sheep lambing when they shouldn’t, to sires who can be related. Other issues of course also crop up from groups of stock being mixed.
We also keep a suckler herd. Although they’re a quiet bunch, it always concerns me that people crossing a field that they shouldn’t be in could stir them up, causing an incident of some kind.
1 guy in particular has the attitude that he can walk wherever he wants around the farm, regardless of how many times he’s told. A gent in his late 60’s, you’d think he’d know better. Threatening him with legal action could be the only thing that has any impact.

I sympathise and it's a real pain but, again, all of this can be remedied by the proper application of the current law. The simple fact is that the police don't want to enforce it, they therefore must be made to enforce it; and this is where social media and elected representatives can be brought to bear, and tutor them in the ways of righteousness, i.e. embarrass them into doing something.

Failing that, just get a Court Order telling the rozzers to do their bl**dy job.

 

[Muddyroads]

As farmers, we’re going to have to get used to sharing more of the countryside with the general public. Most are fine, but a small percentage are the sort of arrogant, difficult tossers that I’ve referred to above who will try to spoil things for everyone else. The law is a cumbersome tool, inefficiently applied, but being able to threaten it can be useful.

 

[Longlowdog]

Whenever you call the police you have to request a crime reference number. Once you have that you can phone the police back and ask how it is being followed up.
My own purchased land has been subject to trespass beyond the laid out legal footpaths when I farmed in Lancashire, I have found folk walking around my buildings in Scotland, my wildlife has been poached and the marts I use and the abattoirs used for the processing of my animals have been trespassed upon resulting in delays in the sale and utilisation of said animals and unduly affecting the time animals have been kept in transport and lairage and thus impacting the humane treatment of those animals.
There should be a specific crime of malicious trespass that forbids the entry by individuals or groups onto land or into property belonging to another or group of others with the intent to disrupt or otherwise harm the operation of (or hinder involvement in) any legal pursuit or working practise. This would restrict lawful protest to public rights of way and actively prohibit abusive, intrusive, threatening, violent or disruptive behavior which has no place in decent, democratic society.
With so little respect for boundaries by so many trespass should be addressed as a criminal matter and not left to individuals to risk their own savings or business capital in the protection of their intrinsic right to enjoy their own belongings without malicious or mischievous interference from others.
@House of Commons , you have my permission to use my words (should you wish) in accurate quote or paraphrase without bias. Regards Angus Millar of Aberdeenshire.

 

[TheTallGuy]

My personal feeling is that there should be a crime of "Wilful Trespass" applying to anyone "passing on land without lawful authority that they should reasonably believe to be in private ownership" - the first offence resulting in a caution & then onto fines that double on each subsequent event up to £10,000 after which prison sentences come in. Where malicious intent is involved, prison sentences can be applied from the start.

In order to avoid the issues surrounding the police & CPS not wanting or able to do their job, private criminal prosecutions should be explicitly recommended & the CPS barred from seizing the cases in order to drop it at the first opportunity, except in exceptional cases where there is a significant reason to do so, if the CPS drop the case it then returns to the original plaintiff rather than being dismissed.

The law could easily set out a framework of reasonability - e.g. fixed gates or signs to a specified standard.

 

[primmiemoo]

Why should there be a proliferation of signage and barriers? I don't think that's the way to go.

Still thinking as the anonymous, average person on a bus somewhere; ensuring existing Agravated Trespass Laws are promptly enforced needs sufficient resources, and a reset of priories and mindsets within police forces, plus better communications and collaboration between police forces.

Other forms of Trespass do need to be brought within the Law with a presumption that the Trespasser is in the wrong. This year has shown how little respect deep down The Public (as a block term) has for places in general. Places with permissive access were trashed. Places with barriers and Private Keep Out signs were entered and trashed.
Social nudges and shoves do not work as well or as consistently to curb such behaviours as might be wished. If they did, there would be no litter along rural roads in a normal time, for one thing.

Most of us who farm carry our business and make our livelihoods at our own homes - rented or owned. We cannot afford to employ private security guards, and we do not benefit from the privilege of wardens such as might be employed by town councils to keep order in an urban business and household context.

Ms Miggins who has taken a wrong turn on a footpath and fetches up exhausted in the middle of a farmyard in need of permission for a family member to drive down to collect her is Trespassing, should be presumed in the wrong in Law, but should be seen as a case to be forgiven.

Mssrs Deliberate Trespasser and cohort (some of whom write books and blogs, dontcher know) who are found where they have received no invitation are committing Trespass, and should be presumed in the wrong in Law - leading to penalty because of that lack of invitation.

 

[House of Commons]

This is ridiculous, what are the parameters? If all 'trespass' were to be criminalised, anyone turning around using another person's driveway would be guilty, and there are countless other examples as ridiculous.

Far better the definition of an Aggravated Trespass - already a Criminal offence - be changed / widened.

Hi Danllan, thanks for taking the time to comment. You asked about the parametres of the Government's manifesto pledge to make trespass a criminal offence.

Here is the full section in the manifesto:

"We will tackle unauthorised traveller camps. We will give the police new powers to arrest and seize the property and vehicles of trespassers who set up unauthorised encampments, in order to protect our communities. We will make intentional trespass a criminal offence, and we will also give councils greater powers within the planning system."

I do hope this is helpful.

 

[House of Commons]

Thank you to everyone who has responded so far, your experiences are so important to help inform the debate on this issue.

Please do keep contributing.

House of Commons Digital Engagement Team

 

[Longlowdog]

@House of Commons , it's really nice to see you respond to issues arising on this forum. Whether the concerns of farmers and landowners will be given the support of law or not will remain to be seen but whilst there are folk like you we can at least say that we have spoken our mind to folk who wield influence. It enables us to formulate plans going forward rather than reacting retrospectively.
Trespass with intent to remain on land is in reality a living nightmare for landowners. Waste left on land by those forcefully inhabiting the property of others includes domestic waste, business waste and human toilet waste. When the site is vacated for a fresh clean site all of that noxious waste becomes the legal responsibility of the landowner. This cannot be right. No-one should be forced with threats of legal action to clean up the detritus of someone who has already caused them much heartbreak and loss of amenity of personal belongings.
Poaching is trespass with intent to break the laws regarding animal welfare and results in damage to crops and actual harm to livestock. Poaching frequently involves vehicles being driven around property belonging to another and when approached the perpetrators often reply with threats of bodily harm or with the threat to buildings and property.
People buy farms expecting the same protection afforded to someone who buys a house with a garden. If someone encamped in a garden or a homeowner reported a person destroying wildlife in their garden the law would be swift to respond but is largely absent when asked to enact the same level of protection to the farmers and other rural businesses who live beyond the glow of streetlights.
We welcome footpaths and right to roam when used for the purpose the acts were written for but in these days of malicious trespass and willful damage to property and possessions it is surely desirable for the concerns of those who suffer to be raised in Parliament and indeed addressed in law.
Once again you may use my words as written or in paraphrase without bias. Regards Angus Millar of Aberdeenshire.

 

[Danllan]

Hi Danllan, thanks for taking the time to comment. You asked about the parametres of the Government's manifesto pledge to make trespass a criminal offence.

Here is the full section in the manifesto:

"We will tackle unauthorised traveller camps. We will give the police new powers to arrest and seize the property and vehicles of trespassers who set up unauthorised encampments, in order to protect our communities. We will make intentional trespass a criminal offence, and we will also give councils greater powers within the planning system."

I do hope this is helpful.

Thanks for the reply, I was aware of the published material already - I am member of the Conservative party, but that doesn't mean I think it infallible or its efforts always deserving of support.

I reiterate that if the police actually used the powers they already have, rather than avoid doing so and - I 'sh!t you not - in some cases spend time pursuing people who haven't committed any offences for actions online / on social media of which they disapprove, there would be no need for any further legislation.

If anyone thinks 'intentional trespass' a rational thing to make a criminal offence, I refer them back to my first post; it would criminalise anyone using another person's drive to turn around it, and much, much more.

Please pass this on to the lovely PP and let her know that even her admirers will advise her against her intentions when it is in the national interest to do so.


Edit: having just taken a squint at Archbold, I think you'd be best off making it a specific offence to: plan, set up, build, construct, lay out or occupy an unauthorised encampent or place of residence, whether for temporary or permanent useage. (You can have that for free... )

 

[colhonk]

What would happen to you if you tried to tresspass inside no 10?

 

[Danllan]

What would happen to you if you tried to tresspass inside no 10?

There's already statute law that makes such actions, + on e.g. MOD or railway property, a Criminal offence.