pH relation to lame sheep/lambs

[ollied]

Does anybody else find a direct link between lame sheep and lambs on low pH land? Not saying it’s the only cause of scald in lambs but we have a bit of land that has quite a low pH than the rest. Whatever goes onto that plot comes back pretty lame and we’re constantly fighting a battle to keep their feet right every year. Will be getting some lime on it this back end so hopefully will see some results. Of course everything should have lime but like anything it’s getting round to doing it

 

[AftonShepherd]

No idea but keen to see any responses

 

[Troward]

I'm hoping you're right on this! Our ground is predominantly very acidic, and heavy, wet, permanent pasture, and we're always battling lameness....have had sheep genetics from a number of flocks that 'cull hard', but regardless of where they're from, their feet have never done well on our ground.

Have been running sheep on some arable ground for the last 5 years that is a very similar soil, but good PH, and I've almost never had anything lame there. Also no mastitis despite having very high levels of mastitis on the main farm.

The two could be unrelated, as I can't find many studies about it, but I've just done a lot of liming, so let's hope so.

 

[Troward]

You never see any lame sheep on the downs (chalk)...but I make a point of not buying anything from the downs as I know their feet will be sh!t when they get home

 

[Jonp]

On acidic soil here, very low pH on old pp. Only time sheep go lame is when they stand on a thorn. No FR, CODD, scald here for years.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Low ph ground has a tendency to be wetter

 

[sheepdogtrail]

Does anybody else find a direct link between lame sheep and lambs on low pH land? Not saying it’s the only cause of scald in lambs but we have a bit of land that has quite a low pH than the rest. Whatever goes onto that plot comes back pretty lame and we’re constantly fighting a battle to keep their feet right every year. Will be getting some lime on it this back end so hopefully will see some results. Of course everything should have lime but like anything it’s getting round to doing it

I have a block that is at 5.3 ph and I have no problems with feet. I might trim a foot on one ewe or ram a year. Maybe. This is after selecting for feet for over 20 years now.

I do have a problem with Aluminum there on that block. It shows up as loss of condition on my sheep. I suppose a low ph can bring on all sorts of things.

 

[neilo]

When we came here, every field was between pH 5.1 and 5.4. The sheep I brought up from home suddenly had a lot more lameness (scald) when they arrived here. One of teh first jobs we did was apply 2t/ac of lime to the whole place, and the lameness all but disappeared again.

However, it could also have been the sheep encountering new strains of bacteria and then getting used to them. Incidentally, the increase in pH also raised molybdenum levels, exacerbating copper lockups.

 

[Kentishfarmer]

I'm hoping you're right on this! Our ground is predominantly very acidic, and heavy, wet, permanent pasture, and we're always battling lameness....have had sheep genetics from a number of flocks that 'cull hard', but regardless of where they're from, their feet have never done well on our ground.

Have been running sheep on some arable ground for the last 5 years that is a very similar soil, but good PH, and I've almost never had anything lame there. Also no mastitis despite having very high levels of mastitis on the main farm.

The two could be unrelated, as I can't find many studies about it, but I've just done a lot of liming, so let's hope so.

Could the improvement on the arable ground not be down to it being 'fresh' ground with no pathogen build up for the foot rot & mastitis, rather than the change in Ph?

 

[Troward]

Could the improvement on the arable ground not be down to it being 'fresh' ground with no pathogen build up for the foot rot & mastitis, rather than the change in Ph?

Yeah, I definitely think that's the main reason, but it's been pretty heavily sheeped for 5 years now, with no rotation, and the same sheep are going between both blocks, so I'd have thought it would have built up by now.

Other fresh ground that I've rented recently, that hasn't been looked after (i.e. horse paddocks, abandoned vineyards, rewilding patches where the owners are regretting it...), seems to suffer the same feet problems even in the 1st year.

 

[ladycrofter]

Could it just be rough grass getting caught between their toes and breaking the skin?

 

[JHT]

Low Ph makes the ground high in Aluminium which locks up zinc and makes the sheep lame so I was once told. Certainly noticed it here and how they improve after lime is applied.

 

[Cab-over Pete]

Ker-ching!!

 

[mixedfmr]

Back in the day(50 +yrs) on the wolds (chalk), loads of folks had a pile of chalk in the field with sheep, for one reason or another, Hardly any lame

 

[Anymulewilldo]

Back in the day(50 +yrs) on the wolds (chalk), loads of folks had a pile of chalk in the field with sheep, for one reason or another, Hardly any lame

Round here Grandad talks of everyone having a pile of lump lime tipped up. As it broke down they spread it but until then the lambs would play on it and foot problems like scald were a lot less frequent when theyvhad the lime to play on. I’m guessing back then it would be burnt lime?

 

[sheepdogtrail]

Lime has very strong antibacterial properties. A pile of lime is probably over 12 on the ph scale and as such will destroy cell membranes of most pathogens.

Even if you can get and maintain a 5.8 ph, everything in the landscape will change in 4 to 5 years. Personally, I am happy with 6.1 and will try to keep my ph at least there. Which is not easy with 60+ inches of rain per year delivered over 300 days plus the cost and time it takes to do it.

As a interesting side note it has recently been demonstrated that Annual Rye Grass can raise ph by 3/10ths of a point. The research has been duplicated several times now. Now, everyone is trying to find out what the mechanism is. If I remember correctly, it only works with Annual Rye Grass of certain types.

 

[neilo]

Lime has very strong antibacterial properties. A pile of lime is probably over 12 on the ph scale and as such will destroy cell membranes of most pathogens.

Even if you can get and maintain a 5.8 ph, everything in the landscape will change in 4 to 5 years. Personally, I am happy with 6.1 and will try to keep my ph at least there. Which is not easy with 60+ inches of rain per year delivered over 300 days plus the cost and time it takes to do it.

As a interesting side note it has recently been demonstrated that Annual Rye Grass can raise ph by 3/10ths of a point. The research has been duplicated several times now. Now, everyone is trying to find out what the mechanism is. If I remember correctly, it only works with Annual Rye Grass of certain types.

I’d have thought that most people growing annual ryegrasses would be applying lots of N fertiliser or slurry, which would have the opposite effect.

 

[Henarar]

Round here Grandad talks of everyone having a pile of lump lime tipped up. As it broke down they spread it but until then the lambs would play on it and foot problems like scald were a lot less frequent when theyvhad the lime to play on. I’m guessing back then it would be burnt lime?

lump lime wouldn't be burnt

 

[Anymulewilldo]

lump lime wouldn't be burnt

He’s nearly as bad as @livestock 1 for talking about things that stopped 50 years ago as if he had some last week

 

[livestock 1]

He’s nearly as bad as @livestock 1 for talking about things that stopped 50 years ago as if he had some last week

I used to spread burnt lime good for the lungs