Phosphorus Liberator

[N.Yorks.]

Really?! Lots of lime used in the fens

Lifted this out of RB209 (Section 1, p.13)

 

[N.Yorks.]

My understanding is this:

Phosphorus in soils occurs almost exclusively in the form of orthophosphate with total P concntrations usually in the range of 500-800 mg/kg dry soil. Quite a substantial amount of this P is associated with organic matter and in mineral soils the proportion of organic P lies between 20 and 80% of the total P.

From the viewpoint of plant nutrition soil P can be considered in terms of ' pools' of varying accessibility to plants. Phosphate in the soil solution is completely accessible but this makes up only a minute fraction of the total soil P. The bulk of soil P is virtually inaccessible. More than 90% of total P is present as insoluble and fixed forms including primary phosphate minerals, humus P, insoluble phosphate of Ca, Fe and AI and P fixed by hydrous oxides and silicate minerals . This fraction can be described as non labile.

A proportion of insoluble phosphate is more accessible than that of the bulk reserves . In this labile fraction solid phosphate is present in phosphate precipitations and is also held on soil surfaces . The labile phosphate is in rapid equilibrium with soil solution phosphate. Removal of phosphate from the soil solution by plant roots disturbs the equilibrium between the soil solution , P concentration and the labile pool at the solid soil phase which leads to a release of P into the soil solution.

These three fractions are shown schematically in Figure 9.1. As well as showing the accessibility of the phosphate pools to the plant it can also be seen that after addition of phosphate to the solution, substantial amounts of P can be fixed in the non labile fraction . The non labile fraction is also a source of very slow release of phosphate. This concept of pools of accessibility within the soil is of great importance in relation to understanding the use of P fertilizers in crop production.

View attachment 908116

Source: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-94-010-1009-2_9

So you slap on MAP, DAP, TSP etc and it is quickly added to virtually inaccessible soil P - this is not picked up by soil analysis and is only available very a long period. Bogger. But there you are; much, perhaps most of the P spend won't be used by crops in your lifetime. Makes you wonder if there is not a better way; band placement at seeding, seed dressing, boosting mycorhizzae ... or adding organic acids. Apparently not, at least yet.

Carry on reading the chapter you quoted to page 459, it describes the components of the labile pool and then says the contribution of those components differs between soils and are "particularly dependant on soil pH."

Think you're correct with P placement at drilling and boosting soil biology (AMFungi).... Ultimately the soil is what it is and is governed by natural processes which you can't do much about. If manipulation to the n'th degree is required then go to hydroponics?

 

[N.Yorks.]

So not being anywhere near an expert if liming (sorry for banging on about lime) makes a greater quantity of p available by rectifying ph then this is the most simple and cost effective way of releasing it in greater quantities?

Yes!

 

[Bogweevil]

So not being anywhere near an expert if liming (sorry for banging on about lime) makes a greater quantity of p available by rectifying ph then this is the most simple and cost effective way of releasing it in greater quantities?

Not exactly, you need to aim for the pH where P is most available and lime to achieve that, but if you soil is alkaline, tough titty there is not much you can practically do:

 

[Bogweevil]

Carry on reading the chapter you quoted to page 459, it describes the components of the labile pool and then says the contribution of those components differs between soils and are "particularly dependant on soil pH."

Think you're correct with P placement at drilling and boosting soil biology (AMFungi).... Ultimately the soil is what it is and is governed by natural processes which you can't do much about. If manipulation to the n'th degree is required then go to hydroponics?

Indeed! That is why wise growers aim to lime to pH6.5 or thereabouts, liming is hardly an exact science - lime is cheap compared to fertiliser (though perhaps not granular lime, there I have said it). But the fixation at acid conditions is >fixation at alkaline levels which is why I suppose calcareous soils remain fertile:

 

[Russell_Sharp_]

Hi Everybody

I am the guy behind the Phosphorus Liberator product you have been discussing. It is great to see so much interest in it. I have been asked by a couple of forum members to come on here and clear up some of the misconceptions that have arisen about the product on this thread and give a bit more detail on the product. So to clarify some of the key points made earlier on;

• Phosphorus Liberator is not just carboxylic acids. I can see why some have come to this conclusion, especially if you have read the Safety Data Sheet (SDS). The SDS must only state those ingredients that are classified as hazardous. Non-hazardous ingredients (the bulk of the product) do not need to be listed (and for proprietary reasons are not).

• Phosphorus Liberator does not work the same way as fulvic/humic acid. To prove this simply get some dicalcium phosphate and try to dissolve it into a solution of fulvic/ humic acids; it will not dissolve. Dicalcium phosphate will also not dissolve in water, but it will dissolve into a solution containing Phosphorus Liberator. Fulvic and Humic acids are great products in certain contexts, but they are not much good for solubilizing phosphorus.

• It is not all just about acidifying the soil; Phosphorus Liberator is mildly acidic, but its action is not down to this mild acidity. In contrast, a solution just containing carboxylic acid (or any other strong acid) would drag the pH of your soil down at the same time as releasing any phosphorus. If you have limed your soils, the last think I would advise you to do is to apply the likes of citric or formic acid to it as you are back to square one!

• Phosphorus Liberator is not just fancy labels at a premium price to dupe farmers; If you think it is, you could try purchasing a pure carboxylic acid solution. You will find that they are not that cheap and will acidify your lovely soils. Even if I were free to reveal the formulation, I can guarantee that the price of Phosphorus Liberator could not be beaten by any other provider out there. At Plater Bio we sell a lot of products into high value sectors like sports turf and hydroponics, but I am acutely aware of the need for products in the agricultural sector to pay their way when it comes to return on investment and for them to be realistic in price compared to alternative solutions to the same challenge.

• Yes if you get the biology right it will help with phosphorus nutrition; This is indeed true, and Phosphorus Liberator will be broken down over days and weeks as microbes and plants use it as an energy and nutrient source as it is 100% biodegradable. So using Phosphorus Liberator will also help activate beneficial microbes. Microbial solubilization of phosphorus can be extensive, but you will find it is most active in perennial crops associated with mycorrhizae (not annual crops and never brassicas). Bacterial phosphorus solubilization can take decades if not centuries to release locked phosphorus. I am also a fully paid up member of the ‘soil organic matter fan club’ and in no way see this product as an alternative or replacement.

• Phosphorus Liberator does not just work in alkaline soil. Again, Phosphorus Liberator is not acting as an acidifying agent, the mode of action is different. Plus, there is plenty of bound calcium phosphate in neutral soils. Phosphorus Liberator also dissolves iron and aluminium oxides that can bind phosphorus and other nutrients at lower and neutral pH in certain soils.

• Yes, liming an acidic soil to get the pH to the correct range is definitely the first option you should choose. For soils suffering perennially with phosphorus lock up under optimal or super-optimal pH there is Phosphorus Liberator

If you need anything else clarifying feel free to contact me directly at [email protected]

Regards
Dr Russell Sharp

 

[Flat 10]

Hi Everybody

I am the guy behind the Phosphorus Liberator product you have been discussing. It is great to see so much interest in it. I have been asked by a couple of forum members to come on here and clear up some of the misconceptions that have arisen about the product on this thread and give a bit more detail on the product. So to clarify some of the key points made earlier on;

• Phosphorus Liberator is not just carboxylic acids. I can see why some have come to this conclusion, especially if you have read the Safety Data Sheet (SDS). The SDS must only state those ingredients that are classified as hazardous. Non-hazardous ingredients (the bulk of the product) do not need to be listed (and for proprietary reasons are not).

• Phosphorus Liberator does not work the same way as fulvic/humic acid. To prove this simply get some dicalcium phosphate and try to dissolve it into a solution of fulvic/ humic acids; it will not dissolve. Dicalcium phosphate will also not dissolve in water, but it will dissolve into a solution containing Phosphorus Liberator. Fulvic and Humic acids are great products in certain contexts, but they are not much good for solubilizing phosphorus.

• It is not all just about acidifying the soil; Phosphorus Liberator is mildly acidic, but its action is not down to this mild acidity. In contrast, a solution just containing carboxylic acid (or any other strong acid) would drag the pH of your soil down at the same time as releasing any phosphorus. If you have limed your soils, the last think I would advise you to do is to apply the likes of citric or formic acid to it as you are back to square one!

• Phosphorus Liberator is not just fancy labels at a premium price to dupe farmers; If you think it is, you could try purchasing a pure carboxylic acid solution. You will find that they are not that cheap and will acidify your lovely soils. Even if I were free to reveal the formulation, I can guarantee that the price of Phosphorus Liberator could not be beaten by any other provider out there. At Plater Bio we sell a lot of products into high value sectors like sports turf and hydroponics, but I am acutely aware of the need for products in the agricultural sector to pay their way when it comes to return on investment and for them to be realistic in price compared to alternative solutions to the same challenge.

• Yes if you get the biology right it will help with phosphorus nutrition; This is indeed true, and Phosphorus Liberator will be broken down over days and weeks as microbes and plants use it as an energy and nutrient source as it is 100% biodegradable. So using Phosphorus Liberator will also help activate beneficial microbes. Microbial solubilization of phosphorus can be extensive, but you will find it is most active in perennial crops associated with mycorrhizae (not annual crops and never brassicas). Bacterial phosphorus solubilization can take decades if not centuries to release locked phosphorus. I am also a fully paid up member of the ‘soil organic matter fan club’ and in no way see this product as an alternative or replacement.

• Phosphorus Liberator does not just work in alkaline soil. Again, Phosphorus Liberator is not acting as an acidifying agent, the mode of action is different. Plus, there is plenty of bound calcium phosphate in neutral soils. Phosphorus Liberator also dissolves iron and aluminium oxides that can bind phosphorus and other nutrients at lower and neutral pH in certain soils.

• Yes, liming an acidic soil to get the pH to the correct range is definitely the first option you should choose. For soils suffering perennially with phosphorus lock up under optimal or super-optimal pH there is Phosphorus Liberator

If you need anything else clarifying feel free to contact me directly at [email protected]

Regards
Dr Russell Sharp

Well done for coming on and putting your side of the argument across

 

[N.Yorks.]

Hi Everybody

I am the guy behind the Phosphorus Liberator product you have been discussing. It is great to see so much interest in it. I have been asked by a couple of forum members to come on here and clear up some of the misconceptions that have arisen about the product on this thread and give a bit more detail on the product. So to clarify some of the key points made earlier on;

• Phosphorus Liberator is not just carboxylic acids. I can see why some have come to this conclusion, especially if you have read the Safety Data Sheet (SDS). The SDS must only state those ingredients that are classified as hazardous. Non-hazardous ingredients (the bulk of the product) do not need to be listed (and for proprietary reasons are not).

• Phosphorus Liberator does not work the same way as fulvic/humic acid. To prove this simply get some dicalcium phosphate and try to dissolve it into a solution of fulvic/ humic acids; it will not dissolve. Dicalcium phosphate will also not dissolve in water, but it will dissolve into a solution containing Phosphorus Liberator. Fulvic and Humic acids are great products in certain contexts, but they are not much good for solubilizing phosphorus.

• It is not all just about acidifying the soil; Phosphorus Liberator is mildly acidic, but its action is not down to this mild acidity. In contrast, a solution just containing carboxylic acid (or any other strong acid) would drag the pH of your soil down at the same time as releasing any phosphorus. If you have limed your soils, the last think I would advise you to do is to apply the likes of citric or formic acid to it as you are back to square one!

• Phosphorus Liberator is not just fancy labels at a premium price to dupe farmers; If you think it is, you could try purchasing a pure carboxylic acid solution. You will find that they are not that cheap and will acidify your lovely soils. Even if I were free to reveal the formulation, I can guarantee that the price of Phosphorus Liberator could not be beaten by any other provider out there. At Plater Bio we sell a lot of products into high value sectors like sports turf and hydroponics, but I am acutely aware of the need for products in the agricultural sector to pay their way when it comes to return on investment and for them to be realistic in price compared to alternative solutions to the same challenge.

• Yes if you get the biology right it will help with phosphorus nutrition; This is indeed true, and Phosphorus Liberator will be broken down over days and weeks as microbes and plants use it as an energy and nutrient source as it is 100% biodegradable. So using Phosphorus Liberator will also help activate beneficial microbes. Microbial solubilization of phosphorus can be extensive, but you will find it is most active in perennial crops associated with mycorrhizae (not annual crops and never brassicas). Bacterial phosphorus solubilization can take decades if not centuries to release locked phosphorus. I am also a fully paid up member of the ‘soil organic matter fan club’ and in no way see this product as an alternative or replacement.

• Phosphorus Liberator does not just work in alkaline soil. Again, Phosphorus Liberator is not acting as an acidifying agent, the mode of action is different. Plus, there is plenty of bound calcium phosphate in neutral soils. Phosphorus Liberator also dissolves iron and aluminium oxides that can bind phosphorus and other nutrients at lower and neutral pH in certain soils.

• Yes, liming an acidic soil to get the pH to the correct range is definitely the first option you should choose. For soils suffering perennially with phosphorus lock up under optimal or super-optimal pH there is Phosphorus Liberator

If you need anything else clarifying feel free to contact me directly at [email protected]

Regards
Dr Russell Sharp

Hi Russell. Could you publish your research behind the product so we can see what it does and doesn't do? Replicated trials etc with statistical analysis to back it all up. That stuff gives us confidence.
Many thanks.

 

[Russell_Sharp_]

Hi Russell. Could you publish your research behind the product so we can see what it does and doesn't do? Replicated trials etc with statistical analysis to back it all up. That stuff gives us confidence.
Many thanks.

Hi N.Yorks.
We have been working with our agronomic and distribution partner Agrovista to get robust on farm data. It would be best to contact them directly for this.

In addition, unlike many other soil conditioners or nutrient enhancers (such as microbials or humics), it is actually very easy to demonstrate the efficacy of Phosphorus Liberator visually. Please see this video for a quick assay that can be done to demonstrate Phosphorus Liberator's ability to dissolve locked phosphate;

 

[N.Yorks.]

Hi N.Yorks.
We have been working with our agronomic and distribution partner Agrovista to get robust on farm data. It would be best to contact them directly for this.

In addition, unlike many other soil conditioners or nutrient enhancers (such as microbials or humics), it is actually very easy to demonstrate the efficacy of Phosphorus Liberator visually. Please see this video for a quick assay that can be done to demonstrate Phosphorus Liberator's ability to dissolve locked phosphate;

Is it EDTA, used as a limescale remover and sometimes used in hydroponics amongst many other things like soaps and medecines? It's able to dissolve dicalcium phosphate and is a member of the aminopolycarboxylic acid family, so fits a few of the product descriptions etc....

Don't forget that P isn't always bound as dicalcium phosphate, there are other insoluble phosphates of Iron (Fe) and Aluminium (Al) as well as Calcium (Ca). These phosphate associations with Ca, Al and Fe aren't the only the only pools of P in soil either...... depends on the parent material of the soil etc etc etc...

Apologies: but I once went to a soil and water conference and a respected agricultrural researcher urged the audience to make decisions based on sound science with published and peer reviewed data. Have to say I agree with him 100%, there are too many companies making a buck out of farmers who haven't got the time to verify product claims etc etc.....

 

[Russell_Sharp_]

Is it EDTA, used as a limescale remover and sometimes used in hydroponics amongst many other things like soaps and medecines? It's able to dissolve dicalcium phosphate and is a member of the aminopolycarboxylic acid family, so fits a few of the product descriptions etc....

Don't forget that P isn't always bound as dicalcium phosphate, there are other insoluble phosphates of Iron (Fe) and Aluminium (Al) as well as Calcium (Ca). These phosphate associations with Ca, Al and Fe aren't the only the only pools of P in soil either...... depends on the parent material of the soil etc etc etc...

Apologies: but I once went to a soil and water conference and a respected agricultrural researcher urged the audience to make decisions based on sound science with published and peer reviewed data. Have to say I agree with him 100%, there are too many companies making a buck out of farmers who haven't got the time to verify product claims etc etc.....

Hi N.Yorks.

• the product is 100% biodegradable in the soil - so that rules out EDTA and its analogues.
• The product also solubilizes aluminium and iron complexes that can lock up phosphates.
• We have good lab, greenhouse, and recent field trials with our partner distributor Agrovista, and I understand that these are available to customers. Peer reviewed journals are great, and I have published numerous studies in them over the years, but I am just saying that the power and action of Phosphorus Liberator is so extreme that it can be visualized in five minutes with an on-farm assay that works 100% of the time and that is very hard to argue with (as shown in the video).

• If you are willing to send me a soil sample I will happily run an experiment for you looking to determine the amount of Phosphorus released from your soil using the recommended dose rate of Phosphorus Liberator using our ICP-OES machine.

 

[Nitrams]

Hi N.Yorks.
We have been working with our agronomic and distribution partner Agrovista to get robust on farm data. It would be best to contact them directly for this.

In addition, unlike many other soil conditioners or nutrient enhancers (such as microbials or humics), it is actually very easy to demonstrate the efficacy of Phosphorus Liberator visually. Please see this video for a quick assay that can be done to demonstrate Phosphorus Liberator's ability to dissolve locked phosphate;

I would like to see its effect in a plant uptake demo rather then in a beaker pls. Seeing a demonstration of plant available phophate would be more valuable

 

[Russell_Sharp_]

I would like to see its effect in a plant uptake demo rather then in a beaker pls. Seeing a demonstration of plant available phophate would be more valuable

Hi N.Yorks.
Once solubilized into an aqueous solution, phosphate is plant available.
R

 

[Nitrams]

Hi N.Yorks.
Once solubilized into an aqueous solution, phosphate is plant available.
R

Yes agreed, just personally thought it would be a better visual demonstration to show this practically in terms of plant effects at rec rates rather then in a lab beaker but get the jist.

 

[N.Yorks.]

Hi N.Yorks.

• the product is 100% biodegradable in the soil - so that rules out EDTA and its analogues.
• The product also solubilizes aluminium and iron complexes that can lock up phosphates.
• We have good lab, greenhouse, and recent field trials with our partner distributor Agrovista, and I understand that these are available to customers. Peer reviewed journals are great, and I have published numerous studies in them over the years, but I am just saying that the power and action of Phosphorus Liberator is so extreme that it can be visualized in five minutes with an on-farm assay that works 100% of the time and that is very hard to argue with (as shown in the video).

• If you are willing to send me a soil sample I will happily run an experiment for you looking to determine the amount of Phosphorus released from your soil using the recommended dose rate of Phosphorus Liberator using our ICP-OES machine.

Thanks for your offer Russell, but as Nitrams says it's would be good to see work showing how the product increases P uptake and probably more importantly how that works through to an improvement in yield on different soil types.

How about taking this product into different parts of the country and running replicated plot trials to show where it works best ie. which soil types it is best suited to? You could also run soil biology monitoring alongside to prove it also stimulates soil microbes as stated in your first post - "using Phosphorus Liberator will also help activate beneficial microbes."

Would be really valuable to have that data then we can truly understand it's worth. If you went to the doctor and they prescribed medecine that hadn't gone through product testing to prove efficacy would you take it?

 

[robbie]

I seem to remember agrii pushing a similar product a few years ago. I remember my agrii man looking at my soil samples and saying that although my indices were 5 most was locked up(which it probably is on ph 7+ soil) and if I sprayed X product at only Y £££ ha it would release huge amounts of P.
It came in 5lt candle from memory which made me very sceptical to start with, needless to say I didnt bother trying it.

 

[N.Yorks.]

I seem to remember agrii pushing a similar product a few years ago. I remember my agrii man looking at my soil samples and saying that although my indices were 5 most was locked up(which it probably is on ph 7+ soil) and if I sprayed X product at only Y £££ ha it would release huge amounts of P.
It came in 5lt candle from memory which made me very sceptical to start with, needless to say I didnt bother trying it.

Robbie, the soil analysis determines plant available P - so an index of 5 means that there is a lot of potentially plant available P - yes some of that may well be locked up in time but at P index 5 you shouldn't have an issue with crop P deficiency.
If your Agrii man was saying different he really needs to go back and redo his BASIS ....

 

[Breckland Boy]

I too have high P indices. 4-5.
My potato and onion growers insist on applying more P at planting as they believe most of it is unavailable.
Would an application of this product release enough P to avoid applying the seemingly unnecessary Phosphate fertiliser.?
Would the cost of such an application be similar to the cost of the fertiliser?

 

[N.Yorks.]

I too have high P indices. 4-5.
My potato and onion growers insist on applying more P at planting as they believe most of it is unavailable.
Would an application of this product release enough P to avoid applying the seemingly unnecessary Phosphate fertiliser.?
Would the cost of such an application be similar to the cost of the fertiliser?

Sent you the RB209 recomendations for P, K and Mg in potatoes below:

Look at table 5.2 - if P index is 4 and higher then no justification for P additions to a potatoe crop.

Ask your growers for their justification as you would need to have that if you had an Environment Agency inspection and they questioned why P has been applied when RB209 says no need.........

 

[Breckland Boy]

Yes I regularly have this argument with my growers. No justification for additional P according to the rb209 figures.
I have areas of heathland with P levels of 4.
This ground is totally unimproved, no fert, chems or seed albeit grazed by sheep.
I am convinced that alot of the Phosphate is unavailable and a maintenance dressing particularly with potatoes is prudent.