Planning Applications, PD and the like (General Chat)

Nice to see that you gave George some business, @holwellcourtfarm. Another + for TFF.
@holwellcourtfarm joins a growing list of TFF members to use our services. Off the top of my head we have prepared and submitted applications for TFF members in:

  • Cornwall
  • East Yorkshire
  • East Sussex
  • Hampshire
  • Hertfordshire
  • Lancashire
  • Norfolk
  • Kent
  • Shropshire
Happy to add to that list 😉
 

Dookist

Member
Yesterday the work @George from SJM Planning has been doing on our barn PD application came to an end with East herts DC granting conditional approval for the conversion of our 80 x 60 hay barn into 2 dwellings. (y)

Last year we applied under GPDO Part Q to turn this:

View attachment 991227

with this outlook (London is just over the hill behind the trees)
View attachment 991230

into this pair of dwellings

View attachment 991231

We were refused. The barn was originally erected in 2003 under full planning permission (because it was within 3km of an aerodrome) with these conditions:

View attachment 991232

The planning officer, very usefully, wrote a long and complete report on the application demonstrating that it met all of the conditions required for Part Q approval but that he considered that the above condition 2 on the original planning removed PD rights and so our application was invalid, we had been caught by the Dunnett investments test case.

We went away and did LOTS of homework, eventually finding this little gem:

In September 2016 an appeal was made against the refusal by North Herts DC to remove a planning condition which had itself removed PD rights from a barn at Knebworth. The planning inspector upheld the appeal on the grounds that PD rights are only to be removed in exceptional circumstances and that, in removing the rights, the council had failed in this case to prove such exceptional circumstances.

We submitted an application, based on that appeal judgement, for the removal of the second condition from our barns' original planning permission. Our decision was due on April 1st this year but the council sat on it as they didn't quite know what to do. Eventually, after considerable pressure was applied we received approval in August, freeing us to re-apply for Part Q.

Yesterday that application succeded.

It has been a long road but well worth it.
So nice to hear a success story... I just wonder what constitutes "exceptional circumstances", as my property, a redundant pumping station had its PD rights removed & this has got me thinking... Do you by chance have a link to the judgement, please? Dx
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
NFFN Member
So nice to hear a success story... I just wonder what constitutes "exceptional circumstances", as my property, a redundant pumping station had its PD rights removed & this has got me thinking... Do you by chance have a link to the judgement, please? Dx
I will find it for you

Can you post a copy of the condition removing your Pd rights?
The reason given in the notice has to prove exceptional circumstances
 

bobk

Member
Location
stafford
Yesterday the work @George from SJM Planning has been doing on our barn PD application came to an end with East herts DC granting conditional approval for the conversion of our 80 x 60 hay barn into 2 dwellings. (y)

Last year we applied under GPDO Part Q to turn this:

View attachment 991227

with this outlook (London is just over the hill behind the trees)
View attachment 991230

into this pair of dwellings

View attachment 991231

We were refused. The barn was originally erected in 2003 under full planning permission (because it was within 3km of an aerodrome) with these conditions:

View attachment 991232

The planning officer, very usefully, wrote a long and complete report on the application demonstrating that it met all of the conditions required for Part Q approval but that he considered that the above condition 2 on the original planning removed PD rights and so our application was invalid, we had been caught by the Dunnett investments test case.

We went away and did LOTS of homework, eventually finding this little gem:

In September 2016 an appeal was made against the refusal by North Herts DC to remove a planning condition which had itself removed PD rights from a barn at Knebworth. The planning inspector upheld the appeal on the grounds that PD rights are only to be removed in exceptional circumstances and that, in removing the rights, the council had failed in this case to prove such exceptional circumstances.

We submitted an application, based on that appeal judgement, for the removal of the second condition from our barns' original planning permission. Our decision was due on April 1st this year but the council sat on it as they didn't quite know what to do. Eventually, after considerable pressure was applied we received approval in August, freeing us to re-apply for Part Q.

Yesterday that application succeded.

It has been a long road but well worth it.
Wow , wouldn't stand a chance in shitty Staffs
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
NFFN Member
Many thanks...I shall have a look for it... Dx
The effect of that appeal ruling is that if the council did not clearly demonstrate a justified exceptional circumstance for imposing the condition in the reasoning on the actual decision notice then an application to remove the condition would be successful on appeal, even if not granted by the authority themselves. They cannot retrospectively produce the necessary justification.

Interestingly, the ruling has application to ANY removal of PD rights, not just one affecting agricultural use (plenty of residential properties have had PD rights removed in the past when PP was granted and could benefit from this) ......
 

Dookist

Member
The effect of that appeal ruling is that if the council did not clearly demonstrate a justified exceptional circumstance for imposing the condition in the reasoning on the actual decision notice then an application to remove the condition would be successful on appeal, even if not granted by the authority themselves. They cannot retrospectively produce the necessary justification.

Interestingly, the ruling has application to ANY removal of PD rights, not just one affecting agricultural use (plenty of residential properties have had PD rights removed in the past when PP was granted and could benefit from this) ......
Hmmm...
It seems PDR was removed following an appeal which allowed a change of use of the building from sui generis to B1. (To protect the Green Belt?)

'Whilst the re-use without extension or enlargement of the building would have an acceptable impact, The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development (Amendment) (England) Order 2010 and 2013 have introduced permitted development rights for hard surfacing and extensions and conversion to residential use. It would therefore be necessary to remove those rights in order that the grant of permission does not lead to incremental increase in size or alternative uses that would harm the appearance of the Green Belt and the Costal Protection Belt.' Dx
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
NFFN Member
Hmmm...
It seems PDR was removed following an appeal which allowed a change of use of the building from sui generis to B1. (To protect the Green Belt?)

'Whilst the re-use without extension or enlargement of the building would have an acceptable impact, The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development (Amendment) (England) Order 2010 and 2013 have introduced permitted development rights for hard surfacing and extensions and conversion to residential use. It would therefore be necessary to remove those rights in order that the grant of permission does not lead to incremental increase in size or alternative uses that would harm the appearance of the Green Belt and the Costal Protection Belt.' Dx
Looks like you are stuck there then. :(
 

Dookist

Member
Agreed. There is solid reasoning behind the removal of the PD rights in that case.
There is... and all applications are decided on their own merit...
But the neighbour up the road was allowed to turn two sheds into houses...it seems green belt and coastal don't apply in his case.
It's all a nonsense, as is the very expensive eco survey I'm expected to produce even though everything is in hibernation and even though I've provided details of all of the protected species on the site along with recent photgraphic evidence... They want somebody to come out and say there is "potential" habitat. Plain bonkers!
I'm not even developing anything- it's just retrospective permission for a grain silo that I attached some bat boxes to. I'm not a millionaire developer- just surviving on a state pension! just wish I'd not ticked the box now... it doesn't pay to tell the truth. Dx
 

Smith31

Member
It certainly does! If I had the means, I'd pay any amount to be free of all this stress... Dx
With all due respect if you don't have access to a few thousand pounds to cover survey fees and to hire an expert the Council will run rings around you, regard the costs as an investment.
 

Smith31

Member
It's a joke.
It's high paid so called experts telling them the answers they already know?
They know the system and work daily with each other .
It's who you know, not what you know some of the time, unfortunately it applies to all sectors.

However if spending £1/£2k in professional fees and surveys leads to obtaining planning permission for something worth 200k? It makes good business sense in all honesty.
 

Still Farming

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Glamorgan Wales
It's who you know, not what you know some of the time, unfortunately it applies to all sectors.

However if spending £1/£2k in professional fees and surveys leads to obtaining planning permission for something worth 200k? It makes good business sense in all honesty.
Possibly.
You just got to go with the flow ,dance to their tunes ,and tell them what they want to know, I guess that's what it's all about.
 

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