Planning Applications, PD and the like (General Chat)

theboytheboy

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Portsmouth
Thank you George sadly I don’t have any photos. The council don’t put pictures on the online portal however they do take photos when they put the notices up. The officer seems to think that she placed them in the wrong place and so now wants to place them again in a different place. I also think that the application should have been advertised in the local press but it was not.
We had the notices put on a completely different farm 10 miles away with a differnt name for an application for a sandschool.

They only noticed when I contacted the officer to ask where the notices were....they then had the cheek to ask to reset the clock on making a decision!

We said yes but kept it in our back pocket as a useful bit of leverage to use if needed later on.
 

Smith31

Member
We have 2 x small single storey detached B1 office units, which were converted to a high standard from old stone built pig sheds around 8 years ago, unfortunately due to covid and everyone working from home we have lost the tenants.

Would we need a change of use in order to use them as 1 bedroom holiday lets ( still business use)? They already have private parking, drainage, bathrooms, kitchens and are fully carpeted, the only addition would be new furniture and showers in the bathrooms. TIA
 
We have 2 x small single storey detached B1 office units, which were converted to a high standard from old stone built pig sheds around 8 years ago, unfortunately due to covid and everyone working from home we have lost the tenants.

Would we need a change of use in order to use them as 1 bedroom holiday lets? They already have private parking, drainage, bathrooms, kitchens and are fully carpeted, the only addition would be new furniture and showers in the bathrooms. TIA
An interesting scenario. There may be scope to convert them but I think it will hinge on how you got permission for the initial conversion - was it through prior approval or full planning? If it was through prior approval and maybe a time limit on how long they have to say in the new use and if it was full planning in his be careful of any planning conditions restricting future use or conversion.
Interestingly Class B1 has now been amalgamated with other classes into Class E. There are permitted development rights that allow for Class E to be converted to class C3 dwellinghouses under prior approval subject to certain prerequisites. This may be something to consider.
 

Smith31

Member
An interesting scenario. There may be scope to convert them but I think it will hinge on how you got permission for the initial conversion - was it through prior approval or full planning? If it was through prior approval and maybe a time limit on how long they have to say in the new use and if it was full planning in his be careful of any planning conditions restricting future use or conversion.
Interestingly Class B1 has now been amalgamated with other classes into Class E. There are permitted development rights that allow for Class E to be converted to class C3 dwellinghouses under prior approval subject to certain prerequisites. This may be something to consider.
Thank you, much appreciated the original conversions were done via a full planning application, the buildings were in good structural condition and already had parking so they were ideal candidates for office conversions. Will look into the PD rights.
 
Thank you, much appreciated the original conversions were done via a full planning application, the buildings were in good structural condition and already had parking so they were ideal candidates for office conversions. Will look into the PD rights.
 

AE01

Member
Livestock Farmer
Can a Local Planning Authority legally impose a limit on cattle numbers on a livestock unit as part of a condition of planning approval?

We have been trying to get a new cubicle/parlour building through planning for over 12 months. This development represents an upgrade/replacement of existing facilities rather than expansion.

The LPA have finally recommended the proposal for approval, but subject to a number of conditions, one of which is that 'at no point should the total head of dairy cows on the holding exceed 154 unless otherwise agreed in writing with the LPA'.

This condition is based around the SCAIL analysis that was demanded as part of the application. No one seems to understand the numbers generated by this analysis but yet we have ecologists within the LPA demanding that the results form part of the approval process.

Although the project does not represent an expansion, it is not to say that an expansion of numbers will not be considered in the future if more land were to become available locally for example. As a young farmer with (hopefully) a further 40+ years ahead of me in the industry, this planning condition is a major concern. I desperately need to move forwards with the project in order to have the cow accommodation available for Autumn 22, but yet i feel there is no way I can agree to a condition that will restrict the business for generations to come.

Is it possible to agree to the condition to get things moving, but then later appeal it and get it removed?

Does the relevant planning policy framework even allow for an LPA to make such demands?

I fail to see how the LPA can effectively place a limit on my business but yet all other businesses within the area will have no limit at all? Surely if this policy is to be enforceable, they will have to write to all other livestock businesses in the area and demand to carry out a SCAIL analysis, and demand that they cut their livestock numbers accordingly? How can they single out one business (me)?

The situation seems more ridiculous when I look at neighbouring units and see intensive pig units with thousands of pigs, or intensive 500hd+ beef fattening units, all on similar acreages to myself. But yet it is my 140 cow dairy building that is to blame and my business must never be allowed to grow to an economically viable level.

I would look forward to hearing any thoughts on this and whether anybody could point us in the direction of the necessary specialists in this area. It is certainly causing a great deal of worry for my wife and I.

I am afraid this is a situation that all livestock farmers are going to come up against in the future if applying for new livestock buildings.

Thanks in advance
 
Can a Local Planning Authority legally impose a limit on cattle numbers on a livestock unit as part of a condition of planning approval?

We have been trying to get a new cubicle/parlour building through planning for over 12 months. This development represents an upgrade/replacement of existing facilities rather than expansion.

The LPA have finally recommended the proposal for approval, but subject to a number of conditions, one of which is that 'at no point should the total head of dairy cows on the holding exceed 154 unless otherwise agreed in writing with the LPA'.

This condition is based around the SCAIL analysis that was demanded as part of the application. No one seems to understand the numbers generated by this analysis but yet we have ecologists within the LPA demanding that the results form part of the approval process.

Although the project does not represent an expansion, it is not to say that an expansion of numbers will not be considered in the future if more land were to become available locally for example. As a young farmer with (hopefully) a further 40+ years ahead of me in the industry, this planning condition is a major concern. I desperately need to move forwards with the project in order to have the cow accommodation available for Autumn 22, but yet i feel there is no way I can agree to a condition that will restrict the business for generations to come.

Is it possible to agree to the condition to get things moving, but then later appeal it and get it removed?

Does the relevant planning policy framework even allow for an LPA to make such demands?

I fail to see how the LPA can effectively place a limit on my business but yet all other businesses within the area will have no limit at all? Surely if this policy is to be enforceable, they will have to write to all other livestock businesses in the area and demand to carry out a SCAIL analysis, and demand that they cut their livestock numbers accordingly? How can they single out one business (me)?

The situation seems more ridiculous when I look at neighbouring units and see intensive pig units with thousands of pigs, or intensive 500hd+ beef fattening units, all on similar acreages to myself. But yet it is my 140 cow dairy building that is to blame and my business must never be allowed to grow to an economically viable level.

I would look forward to hearing any thoughts on this and whether anybody could point us in the direction of the necessary specialists in this area. It is certainly causing a great deal of worry for my wife and I.

I am afraid this is a situation that all livestock farmers are going to come up against in the future if applying for new livestock buildings.

Thanks in advance
I understand your concern but a condition is only there as long as it is valid. You can apply to have a condition amended or removed at any time providing you can prove it is no longer relevant.

Although I have not come across a SCAIL analysis I assume you are in an SSSI of SAC hence the requirement to submit one as part of the application. If the SCAIL changes because of the circumstances of the farm or the parameters that need to be inputted into the calculation and the number of animals goes up then you could submit the revised SCAIL to amend the condition.

As for whether the imposition of a condition based on the SCAIL is valid or not then I would say that it probably is as if it is a method of controlling development within in special landscape areas.

If you can provide further scientific evidence that the SCAIL is not a true reflection that should not be used as an assessment of the impact on the the sensitive areas then you could try to challenge the imposition of the condition altogether.
 

AE01

Member
Livestock Farmer
I understand your concern but a condition is only there as long as it is valid. You can apply to have a condition amended or removed at any time providing you can prove it is no longer relevant.

Although I have not come across a SCAIL analysis I assume you are in an SSSI of SAC hence the requirement to submit one as part of the application. If the SCAIL changes because of the circumstances of the farm or the parameters that need to be inputted into the calculation and the number of animals goes up then you could submit the revised SCAIL to amend the condition.

As for whether the imposition of a condition based on the SCAIL is valid or not then I would say that it probably is as if it is a method of controlling development within in special landscape areas.

If you can provide further scientific evidence that the SCAIL is not a true reflection that should not be used as an assessment of the impact on the the sensitive areas then you could try to challenge the imposition of the condition altogether.

Thank you for taking your time to look at this @George from SJM Planning

The farm itself is not part of a SSSI but it has become apparent that we must be within 5km of ancient woodlands with a protected status. It has come as a complete shock to be honest as no other farming business in the locality has come across this issue before, and my business actually has one of the lowest numbers of total livestock on site of any.

Excuse my ignorance, but if we proceed with the development now, will we be in any way seen to accept and be bound by this condition infinitely, or will we still have chance to appeal/amend/remove it when the time comes to increase stock numbers?
 
Thank you for taking your time to look at this @George from SJM Planning

The farm itself is not part of a SSSI but it has become apparent that we must be within 5km of ancient woodlands with a protected status. It has come as a complete shock to be honest as no other farming business in the locality has come across this issue before, and my business actually has one of the lowest numbers of total livestock on site of any.

Excuse my ignorance, but if we proceed with the development now, will we be in any way seen to accept and be bound by this condition infinitely, or will we still have chance to appeal/amend/remove it when the time comes to increase stock numbers?
How was the SCIAL requested? What was the justification for it? Did you seek professional planning advice before agreeing to undertake the SCIAL?

If you proceed with the development you will be bound to the condition until such time as you seek to remove or amend it. You can apply to amend or remove a condition at any time.
 

AE01

Member
Livestock Farmer
How was the SCIAL requested? What was the justification for it? Did you seek professional planning advice before agreeing to undertake the SCIAL?

If you proceed with the development you will be bound to the condition until such time as you seek to remove or amend it. You can apply to amend or remove a condition at any time.

The SCAIL was not requested initially, but was requested by the Planning Officer several months after the application first went in. We were told that it was required to comply with policy which seeks to protect designated sites of nature conservation interest from harmful development, which in our case appears to be ancient woodland several kilometres away.

Not sure how they can attribute any loss of conservation interest to activities on my farm specifically, rather than all the other pig/beef/dairy units in the vicinity.

I have an agent acting on my behalf, and he informed me that I had no choice but to complete the SCAIL analysis, and undertook it on my behalf. I was advised that it was just another box-ticking exercise, not something that would potentially be used to restrict my business going forwards.
 
The SCAIL was not requested initially, but was requested by the Planning Officer several months after the application first went in. We were told that it was required to comply with policy which seeks to protect designated sites of nature conservation interest from harmful development, which in our case appears to be ancient woodland several kilometres away.

Not sure how they can attribute any loss of conservation interest to activities on my farm specifically, rather than all the other pig/beef/dairy units in the vicinity.

I have an agent acting on my behalf, and he informed me that I had no choice but to complete the SCAIL analysis, and undertook it on my behalf. I was advised that it was just another box-ticking exercise, not something that would potentially be used to restrict my business going forwards.
If I was you I would be asking your agent how they let it happen without informing you this scenario would happen. If they said they didn't know then they probably didn't ask...
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
The SCAIL was not requested initially, but was requested by the Planning Officer several months after the application first went in. We were told that it was required to comply with policy which seeks to protect designated sites of nature conservation interest from harmful development, which in our case appears to be ancient woodland several kilometres away.

Not sure how they can attribute any loss of conservation interest to activities on my farm specifically, rather than all the other pig/beef/dairy units in the vicinity.

I have an agent acting on my behalf, and he informed me that I had no choice but to complete the SCAIL analysis, and undertook it on my behalf. I was advised that it was just another box-ticking exercise, not something that would potentially be used to restrict my business going forwards.
Have you read the SCAIL Agiculture guide? It clearly says that for what you describe spcialist advice will be required to interpret the output. Was this done? If not it might give you the leeway you need.
 

holwellcourtfarm

Member
Livestock Farmer
After 4 years a use becomes exempt from enforcement (except for residential). A development (building works etc) becomes exempt after 10 years.
It is important to state that although they become exempt from enforcement they do not automatically because lawful after that time period. To become lawful you must seek a lawful development certificate.
Unless you attempt to conceal it when there is no time limit.
 

Smith31

Member
After 4 years a use becomes exempt from enforcement (except for residential). A development (building works etc) becomes exempt after 10 years.
It is important to state that although they become exempt from enforcement they do not automatically because lawful after that time period. To become lawful you must seek a lawful development certificate.

If a new dropped kerb is introduced to an A road does that too become exempt enforcement after 4 years?
 

Kidds

Member
Horticulture
After 4 years a use becomes exempt from enforcement (except for residential).

Town and Country Planning Act 1990​

F1[171BTime limits.​


(2)Where there has been a breach of planning control consisting in the change of use of any building to use as a single dwellinghouse, no enforcement action may be taken after the end of the period of four years beginning with the date of the breach.
Why do you say except for residential?
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 80 42.3%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 66 34.9%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 15.9%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.7%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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