Planning Applications, PD and the like (General Chat)

[Greenbeast]

We're living under temporary permission and still didn't think it was worth £2k+ to install a septic.

 

[Nearly]

There's another thread somewhere about using other types of tank as waste tank for staff toilets or static caravans.
Someone makes them out of ibc's and sells them on ebay too.
@TripleSix might reply when he's not burying little spuds in muddy clods.

 

[TripleSix]

One of these, had one fitted for about 4 years.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/152818981232

@Dave W

 

[Dave W]

One of these, had one fitted for about 4 years.

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/152818981232

@Dave W

I’ve got one installed. Not used it in anger (so to speak) but I couldn’t make one for same money
Well made proper job

 

[Cazza]

Advice please

Looking to put up a shed to be used for hay & straw storage and machinery as well as being used at calving time for our cows as are otherthewise outdoor kept.
I have been advised we need full planning but reading the Town and country planning act I’m well and truely confused.
Firstly it will be within 400m of ‘protected’ buildings
But....
reading the act (Over 5ha)
Class A ..Development not permitted
sec (i) it would consist of, or include, the erection or construction of, or the carrying out of any works to, a building, structure or an excavation used or to be used for the accommodation of livestock or for the storage of slurry or sewage sludge where the building, structure or excavation is, or would be, within 400 metres of the curtilage of a protected building;
Conditions

A.2—(1) Development is permitted by Class A subject to the following conditions—

(a)where development is carried out within 400 metres of the curtilage of a protected building, any building, structure, excavation or works resulting from the development are not used for the accommodation of livestock except in the circumstances described in paragraph D.1(3) of this Part or for the storage of slurry or sewage sludge, for housing a biomass boiler or an anaerobic digestion system, for storage of fuel or waste from that boiler or system, or for housing a hydro-turbine;
Conditions
Paragraph D.1(3) then states the following

(3) The circumstances referred to in paragraphs A.2(1)(a) and B.5(1) of this Part are—

(a)that no other suitable building or structure, 400 metres or more from the curtilage of a protected building, is available to accommodate the livestock; and

(b)(i)that the need to accommodate the livestock arises from quarantine requirements, or an emergency due to another building or structure in which the livestock could otherwise be accommodated being unavailable because it has been damaged or destroyed by fire, flood or storm; or

(ii)in the case of animals normally kept out of doors, they require temporary accommodation in a building or other structure because they are sick or giving birth or newly born, or to provide shelter against extreme weather conditions.

So can we or can’t we???????

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Advice please

Looking to put up a shed to be used for hay & straw storage and machinery as well as being used at calving time for our cows as are otherthewise outdoor kept.
I have been advised we need full planning but reading the Town and country planning act I’m well and truely confused.
Firstly it will be within 400m of ‘protected’ buildings
But....
reading the act (Over 5ha)
Class A ..Development not permitted
sec (i) it would consist of, or include, the erection or construction of, or the carrying out of any works to, a building, structure or an excavation used or to be used for the accommodation of livestock or for the storage of slurry or sewage sludge where the building, structure or excavation is, or would be, within 400 metres of the curtilage of a protected building;
Conditions

A.2—(1) Development is permitted by Class A subject to the following conditions—

(a)where development is carried out within 400 metres of the curtilage of a protected building, any building, structure, excavation or works resulting from the development are not used for the accommodation of livestock except in the circumstances described in paragraph D.1(3) of this Part or for the storage of slurry or sewage sludge, for housing a biomass boiler or an anaerobic digestion system, for storage of fuel or waste from that boiler or system, or for housing a hydro-turbine;
Conditions
Paragraph D.1(3) then states the following

(3) The circumstances referred to in paragraphs A.2(1)(a) and B.5(1) of this Part are—

(a)that no other suitable building or structure, 400 metres or more from the curtilage of a protected building, is available to accommodate the livestock; and

(b)(i)that the need to accommodate the livestock arises from quarantine requirements, or an emergency due to another building or structure in which the livestock could otherwise be accommodated being unavailable because it has been damaged or destroyed by fire, flood or storm; or

(ii)in the case of animals normally kept out of doors, they require temporary accommodation in a building or other structure because they are sick or giving birth or newly born, or to provide shelter against extreme weather conditions.

So can we or can’t we???????

From your brief description then if you were my client I would be advising you to apply under PD and if the council come back saying it doesn't satisfy the test for PD then argue your case as 3(b)(i) gives you the exception you need to house livestock within 400m of a protected dwelling.
If you wanted to be preemptive then in your application form state that it will only be used for animal housing when part 3 is applicable.

They have to prove your use does not comply with the GPDO so if you tell them why it does then it is harder for them to disagree

 

[Cazza]

From your brief description then if you were my client I would be advising you to apply under PD and if the council come back saying it doesn't satisfy the test for PD then argue your case as 3(b)(i) gives you the exception you need to house livestock within 400m of a protected dwelling.
If you wanted to be preemptive then in your application form state that it will only be used for animal housing when part 3 is applicable.

They have to prove your use does not comply with the GPDO so if you tell them why it does then it is harder for them to disagree

Thank you.
The most recent agent I spoke to I mentioned the conditions clause and exceptions but he tried to tell me that it would still be disallowed Nader the clause A so I tried to tell him about the conditions and exceptions but he still swears blind I’m wrong.
Now I know I’m a woman and blonde at that but however many times I read those 3 items in logical order and in reference to each other we should be allowed PD.

Would you suggest I apply for PD under my own steam or appoint an agent ( who reads things the same as I do)

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Thank you.
The most recent agent I spoke to I mentioned the conditions clause and exceptions but he tried to tell me that it would still be disallowed Nader the clause A so I tried to tell him about the conditions and exceptions but he still swears blind I’m wrong.
Now I know I’m a woman and blonde at that but however many times I read those 3 items in logical order and in reference to each other we should be allowed PD.

Would you suggest I apply for PD under my own steam or appoint an agent ( who reads things the same as I do)

I would certainly go in for PD whether you did it yourself or through an agent.

I would be happy to discuss this with you if you were looking for an agent, you can either PM me or email [email protected]

 

[Forever Fendt]

Thank you.
The most recent agent I spoke to I mentioned the conditions clause and exceptions but he tried to tell me that it would still be disallowed Nader the clause A so I tried to tell him about the conditions and exceptions but he still swears blind I’m wrong.
Now I know I’m a woman and blonde at that but however many times I read those 3 items in logical order and in reference to each other we should be allowed PD.

Would you suggest I apply for PD under my own steam or appoint an agent ( who reads things the same as I do)

Do not mention the cows calving in the shed at application stage ,just for storage or it will throw a spanner in the works with the LPA in my opinion,Once you have the approval you have the right to use it for calving as per the legislation,Also it will leave it open for you if you need another building in the future

 

[Cazza]

Just doing more reading....
what else is there to do on a Sunday night

According to the planning portal and Hunts council for PD no application is required but we CAN apply for an LDC If we want or we can just crack on.....

Tempted to just crack on as I know we are well within our PD rights as it’s writing the m2 allowed and no other sections of PD apply.

Would you get the LDC?

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Just doing more reading....
what else is there to do on a Sunday night

According to the planning portal and Hunts council for PD no application is required but we CAN apply for an LDC If we want or we can just crack on.....

Tempted to just crack on as I know we are well within our PD rights as it’s writing the m2 allowed and no other sections of PD apply.

Would you get the LDC?

In the conditions for Part 6 Class A it states:

the developer must, before beginning the development, apply to the local planning authority for a determination as to whether the prior approval of the authority will be required as to the siting, design and external appearance of the building​

Basically, you need to apply for Prior Approval using the downloadable form or via the planning portal. You should look for:

Application for prior notification of agricultural or forestry development - proposed building. Town and Country Planning General Permitted Development Order 2015 Schedule 2, Part 6​

I hope this helps

 

[Pond digger]

@GeorgieB82 , We’ve been looking at an unappealing modern cottage in a village location. It is built up to the highway and has a well used footpath past the kitchen window. However it has a beautiful outlook over its 1.6ac of grounds at the other side: trouble is, this is designated as ‘open countryside’. Ideally the house wanted knocking down and replacing with a quality build, that’s of a design more fitting to the conservation status of the village; BUT, is there any likelihood of being able to set the new build further back off the road? I’m damn sure I could come up with something that would be a vast improvement on the existing dwelling, both in terms of aesthetics and convenience, but not without utilising some of ‘open country space’. I had wondered about going for the Paragraph 55 clause, ‘exceptional quality’ route, but could a three bed cottage ever be ‘exceptional’ enough?

Thanks

 

[George from SJM Planning]

@GeorgieB82 , We’ve been looking at an unappealing modern cottage in a village location. It is built up to the highway and has a well used footpath past the kitchen window. However it has a beautiful outlook over its 1.6ac of grounds at the other side: trouble is, this is designated as ‘open countryside’. Ideally the house wanted knocking down and replacing with a quality build, that’s of a design more fitting to the conservation status of the village; BUT, is there any likelihood of being able to set the new build further back off the road? I’m damn sure I could come up with something that would be a vast improvement on the existing dwelling, both in terms of aesthetics and convenience, but not without utilising some of ‘open country space’. I had wondered about going for the Paragraph 55 clause, ‘exceptional quality’ route, but could a three bed cottage ever be ‘exceptional’ enough?

Thanks

Depending on your council and the Local Development Plan I wouldn't expect you to have to go down the para 55 route. Replacing one property for another in the countryside is normally ok providing it is of a decent design and sufficient justification is proven. I would suggest discussing your proposal with a planning consultant

 

[Pond digger]

Depending on your council and the Local Development Plan I wouldn't expect you to have to go down the para 55 route. Replacing one property for another in the countryside is normally ok providing it is of a decent design and sufficient justification is proven. I would suggest discussing your proposal with a planning consultant

Ok, thanks. The existing building has been squeezed onto a stupidly small spot considering it has 1.6ac. I’m guessing it might have had to be confined to the footprint of some previous building, but it’s a really daft use of space. Perhaps the builder should have put more resources into the planning process, and like you say, found a good consultant.

 

[Dreamer]

Building Warrant question.

OK after a lot of zigzagging around the rules in Scotland I have so far worked out that the best way to maximise the Permitted Development rights for sheds and avoid having planning or building warrants is by having two sheds both under 280m2 area and total combined area under 465m2.

The only question no one seems to know, including the locall planning office, is if a building warrant is needed if the two sheds are close to each other and if so how far apart they need to be before a Building Warrant is not needed.

My understanding at this point is that a building warrant is not needed at all, as there is no rule stopping the sheds being close together.

Is anyone here able to comment on the closeness of sheds and if this triggers the need for a building warrant?

I was going to leave 3-5m gap anyway to allow for maintenance.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Building Warrant question.

OK after a lot of zigzagging around the rules in Scotland I have so far worked out that the best way to maximise the Permitted Development rights for sheds and avoid having planning or building warrants is by having two sheds both under 280m2 area and total combined area under 465m2.

The only question no one seems to know, including the locall planning office, is if a building warrant is needed if the two sheds are close to each other and if so how far apart they need to be before a Building Warrant is not needed.

My understanding at this point is that a building warrant is not needed at all, as there is no rule stopping the sheds being close together.

Is anyone here able to comment on the closeness of sheds and if this triggers the need for a building warrant?

I was going to leave 3-5m gap anyway to allow for maintenance.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with building warrants, are they a Scottish thing? Also, has Scotland increased its limit from 465 to 1000sqm?

 

[Dreamer]

Planning officer has said that 456m2 still in force in Scotland. Just have to wait to see if the 1000m2 is adopted in future.

 

[Dreamer]

Building warrant are how building standards are enforced in Scotland. However if you are under 280m2 you don't need one. If over you need to pay fees and an engineer for calculations , could be £2-3k. Moral of story is keep shed under 280m2, single storey.

I am just trying to work out how close they can be together.

 

[Nearly]

Building warrant are how building standards are enforced in Scotland. However if you are under 280m2 you don't need one. If over you need to pay fees and an engineer for calculations , could be £2-3k. Moral of story is keep shed under 280m2, single storey.

I am just trying to work out how close they can be together.

Better to put them a larger distance away and in line. 4.5m?

 

[franklin]

What counts as "livestock" for the consideration of permitted development?