Planning Applications, PD and the like (General Chat)

[George from SJM Planning]

Thanks @GeorgieB82 I had worked it out on that basis and frightened myself!

but as we already had pd I hoped it would not be chargeable in full.

What is the change of use to?

 

[chaffcutter]

Our planning advisor suggested ‘mixed use’ as meaning that a building could be used for things other than ag when not required, eg empty grain store being used for storage. If we went for change of use to business use, if we wanted to use it for ag at a later date, we would have to apply to change it back again!

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Our planning advisor suggested ‘mixed use’ as meaning that a building could be used for things other than ag when not required, eg empty grain store being used for storage. If we went for change of use to business use, if we wanted to use it for ag at a later date, we would have to apply to change it back again!

It is a difficult one as you may not have been granted the permission if it had not been PD and mixed use is not available under PD. How long did you get PD?

Have you looked at Class R of Schedule 2, Part 3 of the GPDO - agricultural buildings to a flexible commercial use? It may be a one time thing and may not be reversable but might be wrth investigating.

 

[chaffcutter]

Thanks for that, will check it out. Got the pd earlier this year but not done anything yet except clearing the site.

 

[Danni]

Looking for some advice.
I have replaced my old Dutch barn 10 x 26m (which was about fall down), with a new barn under P D, granted 12 months ago.
Can I apply for change of use for this barn? P D was for agricultural use.
Many thanks.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Looking for some advice.
I have replaced my old Dutch barn 10 x 26m (which was about fall down), with a new barn under P D, granted 12 months ago.
Can I apply for change of use for this barn? P D was for agricultural use.
Many thanks.

Have you built the barn? If so, depending on what you want the change of use to you could make an application. But be aware that PD for a new barn requires you to have a need for said building. By changing its use you are effectively saying you don't need it now so don't expect another PD to be straight forward in the future.

 

[Danni]

Thank you.
Yes the barn is built. I was considering changing it to Part B, probably storage.
On the P D consent Condition 5 appears to rule out any change of use for 10 years and, if the L A are not agreeable to any other application other than agriculture it may become more complicated and even removal of the barn, is this the case?

 

[In a Rut]

Thanks for your reply. The LPA decision to refuse Class Q :
"The lightweight design and construction of the building means that it is not capable of functioning as dwellings and the proposed works to facilitate the use for Class C3 purposes would involve operational development tantamount to the construction of new dwellings, rather than the conversion of an existing building."
If the inspector dismisses our Appeal LPAs up and down the country could possibly use the decision to help them refuse similar barns. (This "lightweight" barn has contained up to 1000 tonnes of corn annually).

 

[Nearly]

Throw a structural engineer's report back at them.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Thanks for your reply. The LPA decision to refuse Class Q :
"The lightweight design and construction of the building means that it is not capable of functioning as dwellings and the proposed works to facilitate the use for Class C3 purposes would involve operational development tantamount to the construction of new dwellings, rather than the conversion of an existing building."
If the inspector dismisses our Appeal LPAs up and down the country could possibly use the decision to help them refuse similar barns. (This "lightweight" barn has contained up to 1000 tonnes of corn annually).

View attachment 785852

Some of the Q conversions around here have been more akin to complete rebuilds than yours would need! As far as I can see it should be mainly a case of replacing the cladding with something more domestic with doors & windows - everything else could just be done on new block walls assuming that the slab is up to the job.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Throw a structural engineers report back at them.

Totally agree, that is more than suitable for a class q conversion, a structural engineers report would certainly be my next step.

 

[Darranfarm]

All three are possible under a single PD application assuming you satisfy all the requirements listed in the GPDO. A large part of Wales is article 2(4) land (National Parks, AONB etc) and you may be required to have structures that do not detract from the character of the designated land. Polytunnels on article 2(4) land can be notoriously difficult as they tend to stick out like a sore thumb!

Thank you for the reply @GeorgieB82 That helps a lot! Am I right to assume the barn usage; conditioning (ornamental flowers in water prior to wholesale sale), drying & store would be agri, where as floristry would be commercial? If that is the case what would a still room for the extraction of essential oils be classed as??

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Thank you for the reply @GeorgieB82 That helps a lot! Am I right to assume the barn usage; conditioning (ornamental flowers in water prior to wholesale sale), drying & store would be agri, where as floristry would be commercial? If that is the case what would a still room for the extraction of essential oils be classed as??

Oooohhh, you've got me there! I have only recently dealt with a horticulture application and had to persuade the case officer it fell under agriculture so veering away from that I would try to find some evidence to support your case.
From my point of view I believe you could class it as all one process but my suggestion is to have a pre-app meeting with the council and lay out all your plans and see what route they suggest.

I live in New Quay, Ceredigion and would be happy to discuss how I could assist professionally as a planning consultant if you wanted to drop me an email at [email protected] or a PM via the forum

 

[Darranfarm]

@GeorgieB82 On a side note Horticulture Wales, Wrexam Uni based/WAG funded produced a crop calcuator showing costs, market share and profit per acre. I would suggest it would be ideal for proving horti as agriculture. Currently not on their site as they are switching web hosts :/

 

[Forever Fendt]

Thanks for your reply. The LPA decision to refuse Class Q :
"The lightweight design and construction of the building means that it is not capable of functioning as dwellings and the proposed works to facilitate the use for Class C3 purposes would involve operational development tantamount to the construction of new dwellings, rather than the conversion of an existing building."
If the inspector dismisses our Appeal LPAs up and down the country could possibly use the decision to help them refuse similar barns. (This "lightweight" barn has contained up to 1000 tonnes of corn annually).

View attachment 785852

The structural engineers point is an excellent one but be aware some engineers reports are not that thorough and leave holes for the council to pick at ,Make sure that the report confirms that the structure requires no additional strengthening to take the loadings that come with the conversion and have them designs the internal stud wall and confirm the floor slab is able to take the liner load from the walls,leave as much as possible of the existing cladding and send a Marley big six profile booklet in with the application as this shows the product in use in domestic situations.If the existing building was put up by a farm building company it should confirm to BS5502 part 2 the relevant standard for these type of buildings so if it conforms to the british standard how can it not be suitable for conversion of a "Farm Building"

 

[George from SJM Planning]

The structural engineers point is an excellent one but be aware some engineers reports are not that thorough and leave holes for the council to pick at ,Make sure that the report confirms that the structure requires no additional strengthening to take the loadings that come with the conversion and have them designs the internal stud wall and confirm the floor slab is able to take the liner load from the walls,leave as much as possible of the existing cladding and send a Marley big six profile booklet in with the application as this shows the product in use in domestic situations.If the existing building was put up by a farm building company it should confirm to BS5502 part 2 the relevant standard for these type of buildings so if it conforms to the british standard how can it not be suitable for conversion of a "Farm Building"

Awesome post [emoji106][emoji106][emoji106]

 

[In a Rut]

Totally agree, that is more than suitable for a class q conversion, a structural engineers report would certainly be my next step.

Thanks everyone. Very much appreciate all the replies. Our agent is qualified as a structural engineer. He didn't supply a detailed assessment to LPA - but he did confirm the barn is structurally sound - heavyweight steel frame fully capable of loadbearing, part blockwork walls and thick concrete foundations. I've been trying to find any examples of similar barns that have been allowed Class Q after an Appeal.

 

[Forever Fendt]

Thanks everyone. Very much appreciate all the replies. Our agent is qualified as a structural engineer. He didn't supply a detailed assessment to LPA - but he did confirm the barn is structurally sound - heavyweight steel frame fully capable of loadbearing, part blockwork walls and thick concrete foundations. I've been trying to find any examples of similar barns that have been allowed Class Q after an Appeal.

Have you looked on the planning inspectorate web site you can look at appeals through the advanced search by looking at each district LPA

 

[In a Rut]

Thanks! I didn't know I could do that.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Thanks everyone. Very much appreciate all the replies. Our agent is qualified as a structural engineer. He didn't supply a detailed assessment to LPA - but he did confirm the barn is structurally sound - heavyweight steel frame fully capable of loadbearing, part blockwork walls and thick concrete foundations. I've been trying to find any examples of similar barns that have been allowed Class Q after an Appeal.

It may be easier to resubmit your class q application to the LPA with the further information rather than an appeal. Appeals can take forever; plus the LPA have effectively told you what the issue was with the first application so if you can counter that in the resubmission then they won't have a leg to stand on.