Planning Applications, PD and the like (General Chat)

[stablegirl]

Bungalow is not part of the farm.

In the foreground you can see a minor road does this matter, the first building is a silage pit, which id like to extend to put machinery in.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Bungalow is not part of the farm.

In the foreground you can see a minor road does this matter, the first building is a silage pit, which id like to extend to put machinery in.

There is something in the GPDO about the distance from a road but I can't remember off the top of my head.
Feel free to drop me a PM or email ([email protected]) and I can try and assist further. Would be handy to have the address of the farm and maybe a plan of what you are looking to do so I can give you more informed advice.

 

[stablegirl]

Thank you George i will when i get it planned more thoroughly, i don't think permitted development its applicable because it only allows 10% increase in cubic capacity?

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Thank you George i will when i get it planned more thoroughly, i don't think permitted development its applicable because it only allows 10% increase in cubic capacity?

The 10% increase restriction is only for Class B farms, those with less than 4Ha.

 

[stablegirl]

Still trying to get my head around this PD thing, ive read a fair bit of stuff saying the floor space was to be extended to 1000m2 or is it 465m2 still?

Can you just build one multiple of the permitted floor space ie 465/1000 over 1 2 or 3 buildings or can you build 3 or 4 buildings each with less that 465/1000.

Ive read through the government PD stuff and it takes some working out!

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Still trying to get my head around this PD thing, ive read a fair bit of stuff saying the floor space was to be extended to 1000m2 or is it 465m2 still?

Can you just build one multiple of the permitted floor space ie 465/1000 over 1 2 or 3 buildings or can you build 3 or 4 buildings each with less that 465/1000.

Ive read through the government PD stuff and it takes some working out!

You can build up to 1000sqm every 3 (? need to check) years and that could be in 1000 1sqm buildings if you desired! There is no limit to the number of buildings. The other thing to remember that external hardstanding also falls under Permitted Development

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

You can build up to 1000sqm every 3 (? need to check) years and that could be in 1000 1sqm buildings if you desired! There is no limit to the number of buildings. The other thing to remember that external hardstanding also falls under Permitted Development

It always used to be in any rolling 2 year period.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

It always used to be in any rolling 2 year period.

It hasn't changed, I couldn't remember in my post Christmas chocolate coma whether it was 2 or 3.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

It hasn't changed, I couldn't remember in my post Christmas chocolate coma whether it was 2 or 3.

Living the dream George!

 

[stablegirl]

Haha choclate coma.

The only bit I'm left puzzled about is the classified road, how so I find it my road is classified? It's a small lane it can fit an artic down just. Few houses and us on it?

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Haha choclate coma.

The only bit I'm left puzzled about is the classified road, how so I find it my road is classified? It's a small lane it can fit an artic down just. Few houses and us on it?

Unlikely that it is classified but the easiest way to check is to speak to the highways authority, most have a gazetteer of classified roads. It'll either be the borough council or county council depending on your area.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Haha choclate coma.

The only bit I'm left puzzled about is the classified road, how so I find it my road is classified? It's a small lane it can fit an artic down just. Few houses and us on it?

If it has an A or B number it's classified. Some roads are C roads (with no number) and also classified. The rest, around 60%, are unclassified.

Find which local authority has street maintenance responsibilty

Search for a street or USRN number - Find out who has responsibility for maintenance of a street.

www.findmystreet.co.uk

 

[Forever Fendt]

There is something in the GPDO about the distance from a road but I can't remember off the top of my head.
Feel free to drop me a PM or email ([email protected]) and I can try and assist further. Would be handy to have the address of the farm and maybe a plan of what you are looking to do so I can give you more informed advice.

25m from road or more and the P/D is Fine and its up to 1000m2 now for £96 and full planning would be getting towards £3k and less hoops to jump through

 

[Forever Fendt]

Still trying to get my head around this PD thing, ive read a fair bit of stuff saying the floor space was to be extended to 1000m2 or is it 465m2 still?

Can you just build one multiple of the permitted floor space ie 465/1000 over 1 2 or 3 buildings or can you build 3 or 4 buildings each with less that 465/1000.

Ive read through the government PD stuff and it takes some working out!

most forms still say 465m2 having not being updated but its 1000m2 every 2 years the bit I can't remember is when the 2 years is from application, approval or build date assuming you are not in a national park or Scotland or 3km of an airfield

 

[stablegirl]

25 m from a trunk or classified road, but minor roads are ok.

 

[MF35]

Seeking any guidance/experience related to Class Q and bat surveys as a requirement? The following is an extract from an Ecologist to an application.

However, for Class Q permitted development notifications, the requirements appear less clear. Some planning authorities already do require such notifications, where necessary (such as would appear to be the case for this development), to be supported by bat survey information.
Importantly, I would also highlight a recent appeal where the Inspector unequivocally ruled that on the basis that it was deemed a bat survey was necessary, the proposal in question would not be permitted development as set out under Class Q of the GPDO.

Thank you.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Seeking any guidance/experience related to Class Q and bat surveys as a requirement? The following is an extract from an Ecologist to an application.

However, for Class Q permitted development notifications, the requirements appear less clear. Some planning authorities already do require such notifications, where necessary (such as would appear to be the case for this development), to be supported by bat survey information.
Importantly, I would also highlight a recent appeal where the Inspector unequivocally ruled that on the basis that it was deemed a bat survey was necessary, the proposal in question would not be permitted development as set out under Class Q of the GPDO.

Thank you.

Hi MF35, I was just drafting a PM to you but I'm happy to share with the forum.

This is a very interesting and ultimately confusing situation as it really depends on the views of the planning officer and the local authority which is contradictory to the ethos of the GPDO which is to make the decision black or white. After a little reserach it seems that it is not a view taken by all case officers and local authorities but knowing how far and wide it speads is unknown.

I have found an appeal that was brought against a decision that Shropshire Council had refused and that refusal was upheld by the Inspectorate on the grounds that it could not be determined whether the building was suitable for conversion under Q.2 (e):
Q.2—(1) Where the development proposed is development under Class Q(a) together with development under Class Q(b), development is permitted subject to the condition that before beginning the development, the developer must apply to the local planning authority for a determination as to whether the prior approval of the authority will be required as to—
(a) transport and highways impacts of the development,
(b) noise impacts of the development,
(c) contamination risks on the site,
(d) flooding risks on the site,
(e) whether the location or siting of the building makes it otherwise impractical or undesirable for the building to change from agricultural use to a use falling within Class C3 (dwellinghouses) of the Schedule to the Use Classes Order, and
(f) the design or external appearance of the building, and the provisions of paragraph W (prior approval) of this Part apply in relation to that application.

We have never come across this ourselves and I have a call out to a contact who has a larger portfolio of Class Q applications to see if it something they have come across but now there is an appeal decision upholding a council's decision then it is out there to be cited time and again. We are now considering whether we should be factoring in ecology surveys for all our rural projects as I have just had an application returned asking for an ecology report for an application to resite a timber 4 bay stable building 25m!

I hope this helps

 

[Kidds]

I have just had an application returned asking for an ecology report for an application to resite a timber 4 bay stable building 25m!

It's about time the requirement for an ecology report was challenged.
They are little more than a tax on the developer and used by the LPA as a delaying tactic. As far as I am aware there are plenty of laws already in place dealing with protected species anyway.
There is a barn conversion near me that was passed under class Q ( including an ecology report), time ran out so the permission was renewed (with another ecology report) and now the new owner wants to put in full planning so he can have some extra windows on the rear of the property where nobody can even see them.
3 months before a case officer is assigned, a further 3 months before they do anything, and the latest is they must have another ecology report and they can't do that until bat season which is in May. Just ridiculous!
This isn't a sensitive site, just the LPA using it as a delay tactic as they are drastically understaffed. Previous reports haven't flagged anything and a greenfield application not 100 yards away was passed without an ecology report being requested.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

It's about time the requirement for an ecology report was challenged.
They are little more than a tax on the developer and used by the LPA as a delaying tactic. As far as I am aware there are plenty of laws already in place dealing with protected species anyway.
There is a barn conversion near me that was passed under class Q ( including an ecology report), time ran out so the permission was renewed (with another ecology report) and now the new owner wants to put in full planning so he can have some extra windows on the rear of the property where nobody can even see them.
3 months before a case officer is assigned, a further 3 months before they do anything, and the latest is they must have another ecology report and they can't do that until bat season which is in May. Just ridiculous!
This isn't a sensitive site, just the LPA using it as a delay tactic as they are drastically understaffed. Previous reports haven't flagged anything and a greenfield application not 100 yards away was passed without an ecology report being requested.

I have just got off the phone to our ecologist who said that she has seen a recent drastic increase in the need for Phase 1 reports on rural buildings and between us we believe that there may have been a shift behind the scenes at Local Authority level nationwide to require Ecology reports for Class Q applications, a bit like there was a sudden change about 18 months ago towards the need to prove the buildings were structurally convertable rather than the assumption that they were.
Based on what I have discovered I would suggest this has come from the DCLG at a national level somehow rather than localised decision makers. Class Q is still a polarising provision in the GPDO as it directly conflicts with the NPPF and I feel that the powers that be may have been underestimating the uptake of Class Q and the number of rural properties it has allowed and now they are now trying to shut the stable door...

We believe that the writing is on the wall for Class Q; Class M (B8 Storage to Residential) has already been removed and now with these hurdles being put in place it just shows signs that Class Q may be on its way out. We are encouraging anyone considering Class Q to act sooner rather than later; if anyone is considering it and is looking for a consultant then we are happy to look at work nationwide.

 

[Forever Fendt]

Hi MF35, I was just drafting a PM to you but I'm happy to share with the forum.

This is a very interesting and ultimately confusing situation as it really depends on the views of the planning officer and the local authority which is contradictory to the ethos of the GPDO which is to make the decision black or white. After a little reserach it seems that it is not a view taken by all case officers and local authorities but knowing how far and wide it speads is unknown.

I have found an appeal that was brought against a decision that Shropshire Council had refused and that refusal was upheld by the Inspectorate on the grounds that it could not be determined whether the building was suitable for conversion under Q.2 (e):
Q.2—(1) Where the development proposed is development under Class Q(a) together with development under Class Q(b), development is permitted subject to the condition that before beginning the development, the developer must apply to the local planning authority for a determination as to whether the prior approval of the authority will be required as to—
(a) transport and highways impacts of the development,
(b) noise impacts of the development,
(c) contamination risks on the site,
(d) flooding risks on the site,
(e) whether the location or siting of the building makes it otherwise impractical or undesirable for the building to change from agricultural use to a use falling within Class C3 (dwellinghouses) of the Schedule to the Use Classes Order, and
(f) the design or external appearance of the building, and the provisions of paragraph W (prior approval) of this Part apply in relation to that application.

We have never come across this ourselves and I have a call out to a contact who has a larger portfolio of Class Q applications to see if it something they have come across but now there is an appeal decision upholding a council's decision then it is out there to be cited time and again. We are now considering whether we should be factoring in ecology surveys for all our rural projects as I have just had an application returned asking for an ecology report for an application to resite a timber 4 bay stable building 25m!

I hope this helps

I have not read all the responses but there was guidance issued regarding how LPA should treat this paragraph and examples of what was executable and what was not it came out in 2015 from dclg