Planning Applications, PD and the like (General Chat)

[Rooz]

Hi everyone,

new here... trying to find some information about living on an agricultural land and came across this forum.

Basically, me and my partner are looking into starting an agricultural business (eggs production to be exact)...

We might be able to purchase a greenbelt land.

The main purpose of this is to be able to build a house on our land to live in... we have two kids and 2 dogs and 2 cats... and there is no way in the world that we could buy a house with the today’s house prices!!

so we thought we could start an agricultural business on a greenbelt and live on the land for the purpose of looking after the live stock.

Questions that we currently have:

1- do We have to live on the land for 5 years in a temporary accommodation before applying for planning permission for a permanent duelling? If so, is there any way to do this before the 5 years?

2- main question: We have already designed our permanent accommodation and it consists of 4 shipping containers and some open areas to make the house larger. Now, is this classed as a temporary accommodation or permanent ones?

so many grey areas and conflicting information on internet about specific topic... so I can’t really find an answer to it.

Any help and advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Hi everyone,

new here... trying to find some information about living on an agricultural land and came across this forum.

Basically, me and my partner are looking into starting an agricultural business (eggs production to be exact)...

We might be able to purchase a greenbelt land.

The main purpose of this is to be able to build a house on our land to live in... we have two kids and 2 dogs and 2 cats... and there is no way in the world that we could buy a house with the today’s house prices!!

so we thought we could start an agricultural business on a greenbelt and live on the land for the purpose of looking after the live stock.

Questions that we currently have:

1- do We have to live on the land for 5 years in a temporary accommodation before applying for planning permission for a permanent duelling? If so, is there any way to do this before the 5 years?

2- main question: We have already designed our permanent accommodation and it consists of 4 shipping containers and some open areas to make the house larger. Now, is this classed as a temporary accommodation or permanent ones?

so many grey areas and conflicting information on internet about specific topic... so I can’t really find an answer to it.

Any help and advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Hi @Rooz welcome to the forum.

I have to be honest, what you are looking to do will be nigh on impossible, your internet research has given you a simplistic view of the requirements for creating a new dwelling in the countryside, I will try to explain further here but feel free to drop me a message privately.

The creation of a dwelling (temporary or otherwise) in the countryside is contrary to the National Planning Policy Framework (NPPF). Paragraph 79 of the NPPF does leave the door ajar though.

Paragraph 79 has four special circumstances that can allow a new dwelling in the countryside:

• An agricultural worker’s dwelling. This clause aims to supports agricultural communities.
• Re-use of a heritage asset, e.g. saving a listed building.
• Re-use of redundant farm buildings. Although relaxation of permitted development legislation has made this point almost obsolete now.
• If the dwelling is of exceptional quality or innovative in its nature of design.

Based on the information in your original post so not see your plan fitting into any of the above criteria. The opportunity to live in the countryside is a dream of so many people and yet many of those that currently work in the rural area can not afford to live there themselves; if everyone who wanted or needed to live in the countryside was allowed to build a new dwelling there would be no countryside left.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Hi everyone,

new here... trying to find some information about living on an agricultural land and came across this forum.

Basically, me and my partner are looking into starting an agricultural business (eggs production to be exact)...

We might be able to purchase a greenbelt land.

The main purpose of this is to be able to build a house on our land to live in... we have two kids and 2 dogs and 2 cats... and there is no way in the world that we could buy a house with the today’s house prices!!

so we thought we could start an agricultural business on a greenbelt and live on the land for the purpose of looking after the live stock.

Questions that we currently have:

1- do We have to live on the land for 5 years in a temporary accommodation before applying for planning permission for a permanent duelling? If so, is there any way to do this before the 5 years?

2- main question: We have already designed our permanent accommodation and it consists of 4 shipping containers and some open areas to make the house larger. Now, is this classed as a temporary accommodation or permanent ones?

so many grey areas and conflicting information on internet about specific topic... so I can’t really find an answer to it.

Any help and advice would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Sorry I went off on a tangent in my first post, I never answered your questions.

1. There is no guarantee that after 5 years you would be granted planning permission for a permanent dwelling. You would first need to apply for the temporary permission at day 1; you would need to provide a practical and financial need justification for living there. This would need to be a business plan to show that the enterprise can pay the full time wage of the person living there, cover all the costs of the holding and provide the capital to build/buy the temporary accommodation. If you are successful with a temporary permission, you will then need to prove you met that business plans objectives and that the business is still growing and provide a further business plan to show how living there permanently will benefit the business before a permanent permission is even considered.

2. Shipping containers used as accomodation can be considered temporary accommodation in certain situations but following on from point 1, you will still need to get planning permission for the temporary structures and unless your are backing onto an industrial estate or Tilbury Docks I find it very unlikely that a Local Authority would see shipping containers as an appropriate form of temporary accommodation for the countryside, let alone the Green Belt.

 

[TheTallGuy]

Sorry I went off on a tangent in my first post, I never answered your questions.

1. There is no guarantee that after 5 years you would be granted planning permission for a permanent dwelling. You would first need to apply for the temporary permission at day 1; you would need to provide a practical and financial need justification for living there. This would need to be a business plan to show that the enterprise can pay the full time wage of the person living there, cover all the costs of the holding and provide the capital to build/buy the temporary accommodation. If you are successful with a temporary permission, you will then need to prove you met that business plans objectives and that the business is still growing and provide a further business plan to show how living there permanently will benefit the business before a permanent permission is even considered.

2. Shipping containers used as accomodation can be considered temporary accommodation in certain situations but following on from point 1, you will still need to get planning permission for the temporary structures and unless your are backing onto an industrial estate or Tilbury Docks I find it very unlikely that a Local Authority would see shipping containers as an appropriate form of temporary accommodation for the countryside, let alone the Green Belt.

I know of several genuine applications from existing farming enterprises that are profitable & meet the criteria but have been rejected, so getting any sort of permission for a start up is very unlikely. About the only option available at the moment is Class Q PD (conversion of redundant Farm buildings), but anything eligible for Q generally has a premium attached & the conversion costs tend to be quite high.

I'd also add that even temporary accommodation has to be done to building regulations & making shipping containers comply is neither as easy or cheap as some would have you believe.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

I know of several genuine applications from existing farming enterprises that are profitable & meet the criteria but have been rejected, so getting any sort of permission for a start up is very unlikely. About the only option available at the moment is Class Q PD (conversion of redundant Farm buildings), but anything eligible for Q generally has a premium attached & the conversion costs tend to be quite high.

I'd also add that even temporary accommodation has to be done to building regulations & making shipping containers comply is neither as easy or cheap as some would have you believe.

I echo your point, only last year we finally managed to get a permanent permission for a dwelling on a beef farm after 8 years of temporary permissions, both occupants working full time on the holding and they were almost single handedly supplying the local butchers with beef, eggs and lamb.

 

[Rooz]

Hi @Rooz welcome to the forum.

I have to be honest, what you are looking to do will be nigh on impossible, your internet research has given you a simplistic view of the requirements for creating a new dwelling in the countryside, I will try to explain further here but feel free to drop me a message privately.

The creation of a dwelling (temporary or otherwise) in the countryside is contrary to the National Planning Policy Framework (NPPF). Paragraph 79 of the NPPF does leave the door ajar though.

Paragraph 79 has four special circumstances that can allow a new dwelling in the countryside:

• An agricultural worker’s dwelling. This clause aims to supports agricultural communities.
• Re-use of a heritage asset, e.g. saving a listed building.
• Re-use of redundant farm buildings. Although relaxation of permitted development legislation has made this point almost obsolete now.
• If the dwelling is of exceptional quality or innovative in its nature of design.

Based on the information in your original post so not see your plan fitting into any of the above criteria. The opportunity to live in the countryside is a dream of so many people and yet many of those that currently work in the rural area can not afford to live there themselves; if everyone who wanted or needed to live in the countryside was allowed to build a new dwelling there would be no countryside left.

Hi George,

thanks for the reply.

I’m a bit confused though! I’ve looked on the governments website and found this: https://www.gov.uk/planning-permissions-for-farms/when-you-dont-need-it

It specifically says that (you don’t need a planning permission For farming operations.)

1- Is it safe to assume that the above sentence means that I can build a place/barn for the hens without a planning permission?

2- and if so, can I live in a temporary accommodation on the same land for the purpose of looking after my live stock?

3- finally, I understand that we require a planning permission for a temporary accommodation but is a mobile caravan classed as a temporary accommodation as well or we don’t need a planning permission for that?

Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Hi George,

thanks for the reply.

I’m a bit confused though! I’ve looked on the governments website and found this: https://www.gov.uk/planning-permissions-for-farms/when-you-dont-need-it

It specifically says that (you don’t need a planning permission For farming operations.)

1- Is it safe to assume that the above sentence means that I can build a place/barn for the hens without a planning permission?

You can erect buildings for agricultural purposes under permitted development providing the holding is over 4Ha in size. You will still need to seek Prior Approval from the Local Authority.

2- and if so, can I live in a temporary accommodation on the same land for the purpose of looking after my live stock?

The keeping of livestock does not grant any permission to reside on the site.

3- finally, I understand that we require a planning permission for a temporary accommodation but is a mobile caravan classed as a temporary accommodation as well or we don’t need a planning permission for that?

Any form of accomodation, caravan, chalet will require planning permission if it is being used for accommodation purposes, temporary or not.

Sorry for all the questions and thanks in advance.

 

[Werzle]

I know of several genuine applications from existing farming enterprises that are profitable & meet the criteria but have been rejected, so getting any sort of permission for a start up is very unlikely. About the only option available at the moment is Class Q PD (conversion of redundant Farm buildings), but anything eligible for Q generally has a premium attached & the conversion costs tend to be quite high.

I'd also add that even temporary accommodation has to be done to building regulations & making shipping containers comply is neither as easy or cheap as some would have you believe.

Bad state of affairs when genuine applications are turned down but people with enough brass neck buy a field and with a few pig arcs/chicken coops , a caravan and 20t of scalpings set up home and wear the council down until they are given permission. Im not talking about gypsys either. It seems if you move in and say "i havent anywhere else to go, the council will have to house me " you will probably be allowed to stay in said field. I no of more builders who have got houses built using/abusing the agri need/justification rule to be on site , than i do farmers!

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Bad state of affairs when genuine applications are turned down but people with enough brass neck buy a field and with a few pig arcs/chicken coops , a caravan and 20t of scalpings set up home and wear the council down until they are given permission. Im not talking about gypsys either. It seems if you move in and say "i havent anywhere else to go, the council will have to house me " you will probably be allowed to stay in said field.

Most council's in the South East will pursue those types through enforcement and the courts to preserve the countryside. Most have fought travellers "pulling on" and have the experience to take on the modern day chancers.

 

[Werzle]

Most council's in the South East will pursue those types through enforcement and the courts to preserve the countryside. Most have fought travellers "pulling on" and have the experience to take on the modern day chancers.

Councils are skint, they cant afford to fight there own enforcement notices.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Councils are skint, they cant afford to fight there own enforcement notices.

We have clients that are being put through enforcement, including court action.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Most of the time, if the planning department can persuade the council's legal department there is a case to answer then they will take it to the courts.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

For those considering risking development without the relevant permissions the chance of getting caught is on the increase. Local Authorities are finally catching up with the times and using Aerial Images, StreetView, social media and even drones to investigate breaches of planning law.

 

[Rooz]

‘Permitted development‘ seems to be a separate point to the ‘farming operations’. The permitted development requires 5ha of land as it stated on the govs website...

 

[Rooz]

For those considering risking development without the relevant permissions the chance of getting caught is on the increase. Local Authorities are finally catching up with the times and using Aerial Images, StreetView, social media and even drones to investigate breaches of planning law.

I don’t think anyone in a right and sane mind would do that... there’s currently a family of gypsies that moved to my father in-laws land and even they are trying to do the “right thing” by applying for a planning permission on that land.

 

[bobk]

For those considering risking development without the relevant permissions the chance of getting caught is on the increase. Local Authorities are finally catching up with the times and using Aerial Images, StreetView, social media and even drones to investigate breaches of planning law.

Have they stopped giving approval to Part Q permitted development now @George from SJM Planning .
Or just making it impossible to obtain .

 

[George from SJM Planning]

I don’t think anyone in a right and sane mind would do that... there’s currently a family of gypsies that moved to my father in-laws land and even they are trying to do the “right thing” by applying for a planning permission on that land.

We used to be approached by the travelling community on a weekly basis to fight for their retrospective permissions after 'pulling on' but after a few of them got forceably removed we are now getting phone calls asking for advice on whether a piece of land is suitable for them to set up camp. There are still the chancers but there has been a change in attitude from that community.

Have they stopped giving approval to Part Q permitted development now @George from SJM Planning .
Or just making it impossible to obtain .

Class Q is still a viable option but it had been made harder in recent months. The legislation hasn't changed but a few Local Authorities have taken the chance on refusing them on ecology and structual matters and the inspectorate has upheld them which has set a presednce. It jsut means that there are a few more boxes as planning professionals that we need to tick before we submit these applications. We have one in at the moment and three more on the desk and for each of them we have instructed Phase 1 Ecology Surveys and Structural Reports. This time last year we wouldn't have even considered needing them.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

‘Permitted development‘ seems to be a separate point to the ‘farming operations’. The permitted development requires 5ha of land as it stated on the govs website...

If you have less than 5Ha and the land is outside of the residential curtilage then any structure, hard standign or engineering operation should require planning permission. My dad has 3.5Ha and lives on site but still required planning permission for a polytunnel and a hen house.

If you are reaign it from this website https://www.gov.uk/planning-permissions-for-farms/when-you-dont-need-it then the term "farming operations" does not refer to the construction of bulidings, it is (in my reading of it) saying you don't need permission to plough, pile muck, errect fences etc.

 

[Werzle]

For those considering risking development without the relevant permissions the chance of getting caught is on the increase. Local Authorities are finally catching up with the times and using Aerial Images, StreetView, social media and even drones to investigate breaches of planning law.

Lets hope they clamp down on builders abusing the retrospective planning laws, one local to me has been warned twice officially but still just got away with a 3rd breach. I also read lately a planning official had over 90 applications on his desk and had been off ill so how they have time to check everything beats me

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Lets hope they clamp down on builders abusing the retrospective planning laws, one local to me has been warned twice officially but still just got away with a 3rd breach. I also read lately a planning official had over 90 applications on his desk and had been off ill so how they have time to check everything beats me

90 is a lot but it is not uncommon for them to have 40+ at any one time; as for the builder I hope he gets his comeuppance soon.