Planning Applications, PD and the like (General Chat)

[Grass And Grain]

The building within a building is always a strange discussion. I believe in Planning terms it would be seen as intentiomally circumventing planning regulations. Do you remember the case where someone build a house in a barn and then took the barn down?

Question is, why would you want to build smaller buildings inside a larger building? Also, I don't see why planning would be refused if you applied to replace a modern, larger building with something smaller and more traditional.

You're quite right George, why would anyone want to do this. As you say, one would probably get permission to do it anyway.

Was it a house (castle) built behind a straw stack? I think there is a specific clause for a CLEUD that says you can't deliberately disguise it. I haven't read anything about what i was suggesting not being allowed - but could be wrong.

To be fair, petmission might not be needed for internal ag works within an ag building, but building a completely seperate building with its own roof is probably obviously a different building.

I'll stick to driving tractors!

 

[Farmer1001]

Proposed changes to Q from August 1st. All applications need to include provisions for use of “natural light“, appears to include even those submitted under Q Class (a) only that currently don’t cover building operations but change of use only.

 

[GuyC]

Hello George and everyone,
I am completely new to this forum (and pretty much to the whole business of running a farm!) and would really appreciate some advice / thoughts on this!
We have a farm down in Cornwall, which we are getting ready to move the family to full time once we find a house nearby, however as it stands, and not being local, there is no where to feasibly stay whilst working down there.
We are putting in planning to demolish and rebuild the farm office (slightly bigger and taller so had assumed we'd need to put in planning anyway), but considering using it as a place to stay whilst working there.
So the question is: Is temporary accommodation for farm workers (ie myself planting trees and project managing the building work) considered an 'agricultural use' under permitted development?

Admittedly we had considered just leaving it as a farm office and sleeping on the sofa, but I'm sure planners will see though this, and additionally would prefer not to have the feeling of sneaking/sleeping around on our own farm!
We are in an AONB but not a conservation area and the farm is Class A (10+Hc's).
Any advice of thoughts would be most appreciated!
Guy

 

[Kidds]

You really are new to it aren't you. Us farmers just do it and think nothing of it.
As for sneaking about, the more blatant you are about things the less likely you are to being questioned about it.

 

[ploughman1963]

Surely you are entitled to have a mobile home/caravan for just this purpose within the curtailage of the garden - or are you saying there is no house or garden?

 

[br jones]

sorry, playing devils advocate - assuming one could afford to take the risk - carry out the repairs to make the dwelling habitable, reside there for a short period and then apply - do the planners need to know there was a period when it was uninhabitable?

Google Earth may be a problem,aswell as neighbours

 

[GuyC]

Surely you are entitled to have a mobile home/caravan for just this purpose within the curtailage of the garden - or are you saying there is no house or garden?

No house or garden attached to the farm unfortunately. The land and farm buildings were split from the previous owner who retained the farm house, thus no accommodation on site.
We do have a courtyard though, and a large barn which we could put the caravan inside, although as we were planning to make the farm office more habitable anyway, it seemed like we could kill two birds and save the money for the caravan. It also keeps the barn clear to work on/in!

 

[teslacoils]

The house owner will report you in two seconds if you live there without right paperwork.

 

[George from SJM Planning]

No house or garden attached to the farm unfortunately. The land and farm buildings were split from the previous owner who retained the farm house, thus no accommodation on site.
We do have a courtyard though, and a large barn which we could put the caravan inside, although as we were planning to make the farm office more habitable anyway, it seemed like we could kill two birds and save the money for the caravan. It also keeps the barn clear to work on/in!

Your best case scenario in this instance I believe is to seek permission to have a mobile home for residential purposes temporarily. After the temporary period and providing your business plan supports it you could seek permission for a dwelling.
Another idea could be to seek Class Q permission for converting the farm office or other building into residential.

 

[chaffcutter]

Put a plan or photo of the yard up on here and the collective will solve your problem in no time!

(Without any concern as to cost!)

 

[GuyC]

The house owner will report you in two seconds if you live there without right paperwork.

Aye this was my initial concern! - Although we get along with them great, I can understand their point of view.

 

[GuyC]

Your best case scenario in this instance I believe is to seek permission to have a mobile home for residential purposes temporarily. After the temporary period and providing your business plan supports it you could seek permission for a dwelling.
Another idea could be to seek Class Q permission for converting the farm office or other building into residential.

Thanks for the having a look at this George, unfortunately I don't think Class Q is viable in an AONB.
Do you know what the business plan would need to entail to support living on site? Its a bit of a catch-22 as we cant really set up a business plan that requires us to be on site, before we are living on site! Or are you able to apply to planning prior to actually setting up the business?

 

[GuyC]

Put a plan or photo of the yard up on here and the collective will solve your problem in no time!

(Without any concern as to cost!)

Quick plan and pics attached! (and yes the barn had just blown down at this point!) - As you can see it pretty much on the edge of the village, so don't really want to go down the 'just dont tell anyone route' - Very appreciative for any thoughts!

 

[George from SJM Planning]

Quick plan and pics attached! (and yes the barn had just blown down at this point!) - As you can see it pretty much on the edge of the village, so don't really want to go down the 'just dont tell anyone route' - Very appreciative for any thoughts!
View attachment 896287View attachment 896288View attachment 896289

Being so close to the village you may still be within the development boundary which will alter things dramatically; if you want to drop me an email and I can have a look at the local planning policy.

If that isn't an option then being so close to the village may be an issue. It would be hard to argue a new dwelling is needed if there are houses nearby that are within the price range of an agricultural worker. You could have the best business plan ever but if there is a property half a mile away that is available they will say that is close enough for security and animal welfare grounds.

 

[GuyC]

Being so close to the village you may still be within the development boundary which will alter things dramatically; if you want to drop me an email and I can have a look at the local planning policy.

If that isn't an option then being so close to the village may be an issue. It would be hard to argue a new dwelling is needed if there are houses nearby that are within the price range of an agricultural worker. You could have the best business plan ever but if there is a property half a mile away that is available they will say that is close enough for security and animal welfare grounds.

That'd be amazing thank you, will ping you over an email with the details

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

No house or garden attached to the farm unfortunately. The land and farm buildings were split from the previous owner who retained the farm house, thus no accommodation on site.
We do have a courtyard though, and a large barn which we could put the caravan inside, although as we were planning to make the farm office more habitable anyway, it seemed like we could kill two birds and save the money for the caravan. It also keeps the barn clear to work on/in!

Don't you mean no house or garden attached to the farm fortunately? Better chance of building your own surely?

 

[GuyC]

Don't you mean no house or garden attached to the farm fortunately? Better chance of building your own surely?

If there was (a vacant) house on the farm already I'd happily not be needing to sleep in the car/barn! The potential to build our own house there though is pretty exciting, admittedly not something we'd thought possible! Its just unfeasible to carry out any work on the farm without onsite washing/overnight options as it is.

 

[teslacoils]

If there was (a vacant) house on the farm already I'd happily not be needing to sleep in the car/barn! The potential to build our own house there though is pretty exciting, admittedly not something we'd thought possible! Its just unfeasible to carry out any work on the farm without onsite washing/overnight options as it is.

Now, in terms of washing, you may find that there is somethibg in the HSE legislation about this. Most building projects would require a "welfare unit" for a toilet, washing, and food.

It's the "staying overnight" bit that you won't be able to sort quite as easily. As you dont need to. At all. You'll find it very tricky to swing the need to stay overnight .

Best bet - send @George from SJM Planning an email with a plan, area farmed, basic details and see what the scope for a barn conversion is. Check your purchase contract for prohibitions or overage. Bung £5 into the charity pot for all our helpful but ultimately worthless comments, and pay someone to get cracking.

 

[GuyC]

Now, in terms of washing, you may find that there is somethibg in the HSE legislation about this. Most building projects would require a "welfare unit" for a toilet, washing, and food.

It's the "staying overnight" bit that you won't be able to sort quite as easily. As you dont need to. At all. You'll find it very tricky to swing the need to stay overnight .

Best bet - send @George from SJM Planning an email with a plan, area farmed, basic details and see what the scope for a barn conversion is. Check your purchase contract for prohibitions or overage. Bung £5 into the charity pot for all our helpful but ultimately worthless comments, and pay someone to get cracking.

Haha - I am literally reading the HSE legislation at this very moment! - (admittedly not exactly a page turner, but works with morning coffee!) Oddly now thinking in combination to what Humble Farmer mentioned above, that no accommodation at all (and a chance for a self build), may be better than partial accommodation (and no chance in the future).

Have done exactly what you mentioned, George was very helpful and suggested going down the Pre-app route and see what they say. Hadn't picked up on the Just giving link, so thank you for pointing that out - more than happy too =)

 

[teslacoils]

I think if it ticks the class q boxes, and is near a village then putting other plans on the back burner and having a go at that is the best way. Can always sell it then as a rural dwelling with space for some horses.