Please help as I am a simple agronomist!

richard hammond

Member
BASIS
Being very serious and obviously my lack of knowledge , why when a very active fungicide which is systemic has been applied just prior to flag leaf emergence have I not got a flag leaf with no cover for disease ,does systemic not mean it moves around the plant, and we use to be told triazoles go straight to the growing point of the plant!!
I will say where T bla, bla,blas, have gone out the window this year my cereal crops look OK at the moment with not big spend, I do not wish to be argumentative in any way as I am sure I am missing the point of disective timings etc.
Just my thoughts, and yes they are only my thoughts!!
 
Systemics do translocate to the most actively frowning part of the plant and do provide 3w cover whenever they're applied irrespective of T timing
Chlorthalonil type products work by coating the leaf to prevent fungal colonisation hence are only beneficial if applied to an uninflected new leaf and have no effect on as yet Un emerged green tissue hence T timing is critical if they are used alone
 

Flat 10

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Fen Edge
Systemics do translocate to the most actively frowning part of the plant and do provide 3w cover whenever they're applied irrespective of T timing
Chlorthalonil type products work by coating the leaf to prevent fungal colonisation hence are only beneficial if applied to an uninflected new leaf and have no effect on as yet Un emerged green tissue hence T timing is critical if they are used alone
My agronomist a great believer in the 3 week system..... I get nervous but most of the time its fine.
 
Being very serious and obviously my lack of knowledge , why when a very active fungicide which is systemic has been applied just prior to flag leaf emergence have I not got a flag leaf with no cover for disease ,does systemic not mean it moves around the plant, and we use to be told triazoles go straight to the growing point of the plant!!
I will say where T bla, bla,blas, have gone out the window this year my cereal crops look OK at the moment with not big spend, I do not wish to be argumentative in any way as I am sure I am missing the point of disective timings etc.
Just my thoughts, and yes they are only my thoughts!!

I'm going to take a guess that your burning desire to answer this question was inflamed by reading the arable section of this weeks FW over the long weekend.
Better still if you read the last 2 weeks editions in one sitting.

You may also be wondering ....in no particular order...

Is Dr Bill Clark living in the same country as you...or has he managed to find some fileld in Lincs that was never in a drought. Because "here" you couldn't grow septoria on bottom leaves if you were trying.

Where has the mantra " you are an idiot if not using SDHI's twice " come from? Only yesterday we were being told to use SDHI only as necessary to protect this crucial chemistry.

Why should growers even bother looking at wheat variety disease scores? The eight agronomists featured in the past 2 weeks barely make reference to variety in their decisions. Although one did note that Evolution and Siskin were clean compared with Reflection and blah blah. ( No s@@t Sherlock !)

As a side note.. on the subject of Reflection.. what / why / how is it still on the Recommended List???

In the absence of disease pressure does £10 worth of SDHI produce more or less physiological benefit than say £10 of, oh i don't know, Comet?

Next year will be different to this. Maybe it will be a damp high pressure season.
How will we possibly cope, or should we just give up and go organic already?
 
Last edited:

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Being very serious and obviously my lack of knowledge , why when a very active fungicide which is systemic has been applied just prior to flag leaf emergence have I not got a flag leaf with no cover for disease ,does systemic not mean it moves around the plant, and we use to be told triazoles go straight to the growing point of the plant!!
I will say where T bla, bla,blas, have gone out the window this year my cereal crops look OK at the moment with not big spend, I do not wish to be argumentative in any way as I am sure I am missing the point of disective timings etc.
Just my thoughts, and yes they are only my thoughts!!

Looking around yesterday I'm very happy with the decisions made so far, looks like the late t1 of just CTL was enough to covert short gap to T2. We had cheap protection while pressure was low but now have Rolls Royce cover through what is the highest pressure and most important part of the season.

I think the timings this season have been more the issue than the chemistry ? luck with weather etc very area dependant ??
 

Daniel

Member
Being very serious and obviously my lack of knowledge , why when a very active fungicide which is systemic has been applied just prior to flag leaf emergence have I not got a flag leaf with no cover for disease ,does systemic not mean it moves around the plant, and we use to be told triazoles go straight to the growing point of the plant!!
I will say where T bla, bla,blas, have gone out the window this year my cereal crops look OK at the moment with not big spend, I do not wish to be argumentative in any way as I am sure I am missing the point of disective timings etc.
Just my thoughts, and yes they are only my thoughts!!

Never seem to get round to the T timings. Joys of being a mixed farmer and jack of all trades. So far it's had a T0 of Capalo, a T1.5ish of Mantra and Roulette and will get something the end of this week with the ear fully emerged.

Mildew in the bottom but clean otherwise. Don't think I've ever used an SDHI, yields over the last 3 years have been good.
 

franklin

New Member
Why is it all the Lincolnshire agronomists are so frustrated? Mine is going crazy over this years problems!! She is based in Louth as well!!

Mine comes round for his weekly flap. There is the thin end of f all disease here - no doubt we could have got away with a much smaller spend. Perhaps I should ask him for a couple of free iPads if he wants to keep us on his milkround? I stress the "got away with it" as we all know what a damp, humid climate we have + high nitrogen rates = always a disaster waiting to happen.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
How systemic is it? For the fungicide to travel from the leaf, all the way to the bottom of that leaf sheath to the node then back up the unemerged leaf is quite a long way to travel. Does a systemic fungicide jump across the leaf to the new one instead of travelling the full distance as above?

Many years ago when I was doing my BASIS, the manufacturers were still wringing what they could out of strobilurins. Some of the strobs (trifloxystrobin I thnk) was supposed to be more mobile than others & Bayer (?) were marketing it on this basis. All these sales pitches were made on the basis of application to the emerging leaf, not to the next one to emerge but this was 10 years ago so my memory is a bit hazy. Perhaps the manufacturers & boffins can comment? @Ian at Bayer @cricketandcrops (I know you don't work for them any more) @Woodlander ?

I don't know enough about the movement of fungicdes inside the plant to answer your comment, Richard. Did you intend to cover the leaf 2 and want the chemical to travel to the emerging flag leaf?

I haven't read that bit of FW yet. Bill Clark advocates SDHIs because triazoles don't do much in the way of curative activity on septoria any more. He has never been a fan of cutting doses - look where this got us with strobs, Atlantis etc. He is a scientist, not a commercial agronomist. If you want to keep disease out, hit it hard. You independent field walkers are looking to provide cost effective advice under pressure from the clients to save them money versus the sales driven serviced sector. I have little faith in Farmers Weekly wanting to annoy their sponsors by advocating low input systems!

I think people take too much at face value, not scratching beneath the surface of the glossy sales agendae. How about a bit of informal benchmarking? Calculate fungicide cost per tonne vs the belt and braces brigade to see who is getting the best results ;)
 

Steevo

Member
Location
Gloucestershire
How systemic is it? For the fungicide to travel from the leaf, all the way to the bottom of that leaf sheath to the node then back up the unemerged leaf is quite a long way to travel. Does a systemic fungicide jump across the leaf to the new one instead of travelling the full distance as above?

Many years ago when I was doing my BASIS, the manufacturers were still wringing what they could out of strobilurins. Some of the strobs (trifloxystrobin I thnk) was supposed to be more mobile than others & Bayer (?) were marketing it on this basis. All these sales pitches were made on the basis of application to the emerging leaf, not to the next one to emerge but this was 10 years ago so my memory is a bit hazy. Perhaps the manufacturers & boffins can comment? @Ian at Bayer @cricketandcrops (I know you don't work for them any more) @Woodlander ?

I don't know enough about the movement of fungicdes inside the plant to answer your comment, Richard. Did you intend to cover the leaf 2 and want the chemical to travel to the emerging flag leaf?

I haven't read that bit of FW yet. Bill Clark advocates SDHIs because triazoles don't do much in the way of curative activity on septoria any more. He has never been a fan of cutting doses - look where this got us with strobs, Atlantis etc. He is a scientist, not a commercial agronomist. If you want to keep disease out, hit it hard. You independent field walkers are looking to provide cost effective advice under pressure from the clients to save them money versus the sales driven serviced sector. I have little faith in Farmers Weekly wanting to annoy their sponsors by advocating low input systems!

I think people take too much at face value, not scratching beneath the surface of the glossy sales agendae. How about a bit of informal benchmarking? Calculate fungicide cost per tonne vs the belt and braces brigade to see who is getting the best results ;)

Ah, you mean get some Real Results! ;)
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
£12.80/t for 2016 harvest. Budget £13/t for 2017 harvest, not helped by growing JB Diego. Used to be under £10/t until about 3 years ago! 2015 was £9.44/t thanks to low disease pressure and higher yields.

Bear in mind I'm in a high septoria area with 1100-1500mm rain/year not East Anglia.
 
look where this got us with strobs, Atlantis etc. He is a scientist, not a commercial agronomist. If you want to keep disease out, hit it hard. You independent field walkers are looking to provide cost effective advice under pressure from the clients to save them money versus the sales driven serviced sector. I have little faith in Farmers Weekly wanting to annoy their sponsors by advocating low input systems!

This I totally agree with ,,,,,,,, but then I suppose that if I had 1000 ha of wheat in the ground I would be looking fairly keenly to shave a bit of the chem bill ,,,,,,,,,, but there lies the crux of the mater ,,,,, I don't have 1000's of ha of wheat so I have to be productive as possible on my patch . But still make mistakes , ,,,,,,, should of put more moddus or terpal equivalent on , a big storm and I would be looking at some flat crops ,,,,, T1 went on a bit late on some wheats , been watching septoria ever since,

But reading this forum by the sounds of things we have been in the lucky part of the country
 

Gong Farmer

Member
BASIS
Location
S E Glos
How systemic is it? For the fungicide to travel from the leaf, all the way to the bottom of that leaf sheath to the node then back up the unemerged leaf is quite a long way to travel. Does a systemic fungicide jump across the leaf to the new one instead of travelling the full distance as above?
That would be moving backwards/downwards which systemic fungicides generally don't do. If it gets into a later-emerging leaf it would have to have come from the stem (hence moving upwards) so would depend on how much was put on the stem (or was washed to the stem via the leaf axil).
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
That would be moving backwards/downwards which systemic fungicides generally don't do. If it gets into a later-emerging leaf it would have to have come from the stem (hence moving upwards) so would depend on how much was put on the stem (or was washed to the stem via the leaf axil).

On that basis, would the OP's assertion/hope that the emerging leaf would be fully protected be wrong?
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 81 42.2%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 68 35.4%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 15.6%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.6%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 7 3.6%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,294
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top