Possible expansion of NATO

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
By a very odd coincidence, earlier today I met I fellow I was at school with and haven't seen for nearly thirty years. He is Swede married to a Brit and, after spending most of the last couple of decades in Sweden, they have decided to move, of all places to Pembrokeshire - I know, I know, but there's no accounting for taste... :yuck:

Anyway, we had a pretty good chat and at one point the subject of Mr Putin and his demands / threats to NATO and against his neighbours came up. Now, a thing that has always seemed a given to me is Swedish military neutrality; but, according to my chum, there are a growing number of people in Sweden - maybe even a majority already - who think that joining NATO may not just be a good idea, but a necessity.

Well, that was news to me, but I've just being doing a bit of research and he wasn't kidding. He did national service, and despite stopping it in 2010, the Swedes re-started it a few years ago, and apparently it isn't an unpopular thing with the Swedish public as a whole - no idea what those conscripted have to say. Anyway, surprising though I find it, Sweden joining NATO now seems a realistic possibility in the not too distant future, several leading politicians there, including their PM, have said it may happen. I've no reason to believe Swedish politicos are any different to others in terms of moral courage, so they may be testing the water and thinking about going ahead if there isn't a public backlash.

And, perhaps a little less surprisingly bearing in mind their location, the same sort of noises are coming from Finland. If Finland were to join, it would give Russia another 700 miles / 1100km of border with NATO. If...

When China tried to bully Australia, Xi scored a huge own goal by alienating and driving the Aussies away from China and much, much closer to the US, UK etc.. I wonder if Vlad's warnings and demands that no countries East of the current NATO members should be allowed to join it, will have a similar effect and actually push them into doing what he really doesn't want... thoughts?
 

le bon paysan

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Limousin, France
By a very odd coincidence, earlier today I met I fellow I was at school with and haven't seen for nearly thirty years. He is Swede married to a Brit and, after spending most of the last couple of decades in Sweden, they have decided to move, of all places to Pembrokeshire - I know, I know, but there's no accounting for taste... :yuck:

Anyway, we had a pretty good chat and at one point the subject of Mr Putin and his demands / threats to NATO and against his neighbours came up. Now, a thing that has always seemed a given to me is Swedish military neutrality; but, according to my chum, there are a growing number of people in Sweden - maybe even a majority already - who think that joining NATO may not just be a good idea, but a necessity.

Well, that was news to me, but I've just being doing a bit of research and he wasn't kidding. He did national service, and despite stopping it in 2010, the Swedes re-started it a few years ago, and apparently it isn't an unpopular thing with the Swedish public as a whole - no idea what those conscripted have to say. Anyway, surprising though I find it, Sweden joining NATO now seems a realistic possibility in the not too distant future, several leading politicians there, including their PM, have said it may happen. I've no reason to believe Swedish politicos are any different to others in terms of moral courage, so they may be testing the water and thinking about going ahead if there isn't a public backlash.

And, perhaps a little less surprisingly bearing in mind their location, the same sort of noises are coming from Finland. If Finland were to join, it would give Russia another 700 miles / 1100km of border with NATO. If...

When China tried to bully Australia, Xi scored a huge own goal by alienating and driving the Aussies away from China and much, much closer to the US, UK etc.. I wonder if Vlad's warnings and demands that no countries East of the current NATO members should be allowed to join it, will have a similar effect and actually push them into doing what he really doesn't want... thoughts?
As Finland used to be part of Russia I'd imagine that would really pee him off!
@its yourself
 
Item on rad 4 10 pm program yesterday where a Finnish defence bod (i think) was interviewed and gave a very good indication that Finland is uber proud of it's non aligned defence policy. The glaring comment was that he corrected the interviewer when he suggested Finland was Neutral..

The Finns are leaning in a westerly direction.

They put up a very spirited defence against the soviets last time around but despite possesing some formidable equipment and armed forces they'd be no match now.
 

Exfarmer

Member
Location
Bury St Edmunds
As Finland used to be part of Russia I'd imagine that would really pee him off!
@its yourself
Finland historically was never part of Russia. It was occupied in 1809 and remained part of the Russian empire until the revolution when it was allowed to secede.
In 1940 it fought and beat the Russian incursion prompting Finland to fall into the Axis However the Germans never physically supported Finland except for muntition supplies. The Finns gave the Russians a bloody nose. The Russians continued to attack Finland until 1944
Since WW2 Finland has run a neutral policy but is increasingly being drawn towards NATO thanks to the bellicose actions of Vladimir Putin
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Finland historically was never part of Russia. It was occupied in 1809 and remained part of the Russian empire until the revolution when it was allowed to secede.
In 1940 it fought and beat the Russian incursion prompting Finland to fall into the Axis However the Germans never physically supported Finland except for muntition supplies. The Finns gave the Russians a bloody nose. The Russians continued to attack Finland until 1944
Since WW2 Finland has run a neutral policy but is increasingly being drawn towards NATO thanks to the bellicose actions of Vladimir Putin
Spot on. One explanation for Vlad's behaviour could be that he actually wants NATO expansion to provide him with a domestic distraction etc.. But it seems more likely that his domestic standing would be lessened if his publicly stated wants were to lead to the opposite. Hard to say...

I'm minded of a discussion we had some time ago in re Ukraine; in that I suggested that Vlad might be angling to have the Russian border move West to the Dnieper. it seems crazy we re discussing such things in 2022, but I'm minded that it's not impossible. Should that happen, the remaining part of Ukraine would almost certainly join NATO, of course Russia would then be bigger, but it would mean another 500+ miles of border with a NATO state.

But my guess is that Vlad just wants to be treated like a 'big man', and will wind his neck in significantly if he's treated as such - certainly Macron seems to think so and has made many placatory statements in that vein. Problem with that is all the aggro' Vlad's causing for attention may have unintended consequences.
 

kfpben

Member
Location
Mid Hampshire
Would NATO intervene though? If Russia marched into Finland would we mobilise forces?
I doubt it- the West is currently rotting from within under a weight of social media algorithms and identity politics.

If we won’t fight is it worth these Eastern states joining NATO?
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
Would NATO intervene though? If Russia marched into Finland would we mobilise forces?
I doubt it- the West is currently rotting from within under a weight of social media algorithms and identity politics.

If we won’t fight is it worth these Eastern states joining NATO?
I think the general principal of NATO is so important to its member states that, yes, we would - that apart from being treaty bound to do so.

We - the West - had no obligation to Ukraine, Vlad knew this and acted, more or less, with impunity. He hasn't even put a toe over any NATO member's borders, and when Turkey shot down a Russian fighter jet for straying into its airspace, Vlad was as calm and keen to de-escalate the situation as could be imagined.
 

Exfarmer

Member
Location
Bury St Edmunds
Would NATO intervene though? If Russia marched into Finland would we mobilise forces?
I doubt it- the West is currently rotting from within under a weight of social media algorithms and identity politics.

If we won’t fight is it worth these Eastern states joining NATO?
Finland is not currently a member, however they are making noises about joining as is Sweden
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
You Tories are unbelievable. Expand NATO whilst you have lumbered the nation with Johnson as leader? Why only yesterday his half witted mate Rees Mogg was doing his best to set fire to the Union with his casual dismissal of the Scots. Doesn’t he realise without a place to park our nuclear subs there’s no independent deterrent? What a bunch of morons! I cannot stop you picking a fight with Putin but heaven’s sake let’s have someone more competent in Downing Street first.
 

linga

Member
Location
Ceredigion
You Tories are unbelievable. Expand NATO whilst you have lumbered the nation with Johnson as leader? Why only yesterday his half witted mate Rees Mogg was doing his best to set fire to the Union with his casual dismissal of the Scots. Doesn’t he realise without a place to park our nuclear subs there’s no independent deterrent? What a bunch of morons! I cannot stop you picking a fight with Putin but heaven’s sake let’s have someone more competent in Downing Street first.
Is Scotland the only place the subs could be parked ?
 
Is Scotland the only place the subs could be parked ?
At the moment it's the best place for them, but when they were close to independence, then plans were put in place to move them south obviously. I guess these are mothballed now until they do withdraw. They're parked in Scotland for 2 reasons, the trickle down effect of the forces being paid and based in the region to help the Scottish economy and the fact that if something terrible happened it won't affect as many people.
 

Exfarmer

Member
Location
Bury St Edmunds
You Tories are unbelievable. Expand NATO whilst you have lumbered the nation with Johnson as leader? Why only yesterday his half witted mate Rees Mogg was doing his best to set fire to the Union with his casual dismissal of the Scots. Doesn’t he realise without a place to park our nuclear subs there’s no independent deterrent? What a bunch of morons! I cannot stop you picking a fight with Putin but heaven’s sake let’s have someone more competent in Downing Street first.
many on the right are more than comfortable with the dissolution of the union. They view Scotland and Northern Ireland as a major drain on the economy and we would be better off without. Not sure how they view Wales , but probably the same.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
many on the right are more than comfortable with the dissolution of the union. They view Scotland and Northern Ireland as a major drain on the economy and we would be better off without. Not sure how they view Wales , but probably the same.
No, no, that can't be right, the SNP are forever telling us Scotland isn't a drain on the UK economy, at all. And every single time they hold out the begging-bowl, without fail, they remind us this is the case. (y)
 

Ashtree

Member
All this balderdash from the usuals on here, with a stiff erection from the eroticism of sovereignty shimmering in the glow of the sunny uplands, and the power rush, of potentially holding the lamp for Uncle Sam, while he and he alone, fires a few shots at Vlad.
All this nonsense, while they (the usuals), have collectively conspired to demote significantly Britain’s place in the world order and irrevocably sunder their precious union. NI is already in effect gone and on it’s journey back home. twit from two centuries ago, has further emboldened the SNP, with his two faced arrogance in Parliament this week. To top it off, he then insults Wales. All against a backdrop of chaos, corruption, nepotism, deceit, lies, lies, lies, lies, lies, more corruption and more lies at the heart of government and specifically at number 10.
Vlad must be pissing himself big time 😱
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
No, no, that can't be right, the SNP are forever telling us Scotland isn't a drain on the UK economy, at all. And every single time they hold out the begging-bowl, without fail, they remind us this is the case. (y)
The SNP can keep quiet for now. Rees Mogg and the pathetic excuse of a prime minister are doing more for the nationalist cause the they ever could achieve alone. Sturgeon knows this. As Exfarmer says independence for Scotland is part of Rees Mogg’s wet dream. Johnson is so removed from reality he probably still thinks he’s Churchill.
 

Danllan

Member
Location
Sir Gar / Carms
The SNP can keep quiet for now. Rees Mogg and the pathetic excuse of a prime minister are doing more for the nationalist cause the they ever could achieve alone. Sturgeon knows this. As Exfarmer says independence for Scotland is part of Rees Mogg’s wet dream. Johnson is so removed from reality he probably still thinks he’s Churchill.
Ms Sturgeon is keeping quiet because her economy, education and health sector are falling to pieces.

You really need to read the vitriolic crap you're writing, it comes across as nothing but the ravings of wannabe student-radical.
 

fudge

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire.
Ms Sturgeon is keeping quiet because her economy, education and health sector are falling to pieces.

You really need to read the vitriolic crap you're writing, it comes across as nothing but the ravings of wannabe student-radical.
Vitriolic crap? You need to wake up and stop supporting the worst prime minister in history!! Expanding NATO indeed!! Who would want to join Johnson and Rees Mogg?
 
It is a shame these discussions spiral into slanging matches so quickly.

A really interesting subject too.

FWIW non aligned countries would not be joining J and Mogg (eeeww) but one of the most formidable military alliances on the planet.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 78 43.1%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 63 34.8%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 30 16.6%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 4 2.2%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,286
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
Top