Power Harrow Combis, Are they really any good?

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
Well this year we have had the best spring barley yields ever using a power harrow drill combination.Our glacial soils benefit from autumn ploughing and winter weathering and just crumble in spring when sown. When we used to sow wheat 30 years ago it was the only way to beat the weather in the autumn here ploughing grass and sowing immediately. I would say it was no worse than watching our neighbours stir porridge with their mini till cultivators when the soil is too wet as it is now and as for the tatties being lifted just now then the tracks are going to leave a lot of soil damage with very little chance of wheat being sown. Have seen massive gully erosion on their fields down the tramlines in the spring with the combination of hard ground and heavy winter rains

i would agree they are “no worse than min-till cultivators”.

mintil is the work of the devil - grass weeds and slug nirvana, and still destroys soil structure and biology networks, not sure i can see any point in that, ultimately its just “bad ploughing” really - but I guess because it involves big sexy tractors it was a pretty easy sell
 
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grass man

Member
i would agree they are “no worse than min-till cultivators”.

mintil is the work of the devil - grass weeds and slug nirvana, and still destroys soil structure and biology networks, not sure i can see any point in that, ultimately its just “bad ploughing” really - but I guess because it involves big sexy tractors it was a pretty easy sell
What do you mean ploughing properly?
 

Robt

Member
Location
Suffolk
I think that if that combi really needs that size tractor on it then Progress is the last thing I’d have called it.
Hi Simon, 3m progress requires 150hp upwards. We offer twos power Harrow options. 190 and 300hp gearboxes. It’s heavy to give 100kg coulter pressure when needed. We also offer 30 and 50kg coulter options and obviously they weigh less.
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
No
Hp dictates output, not lift capacity
it goes eithout saying that you can lift it
A Fastrac 2155 certainly has the HP to drive a heavy Combi such as the Kuhn LC 4000 Combiliner Venta with the system disc coulters, but doesn't have the lift capacity to lift it.
On my last one, a 2140, I used to use a Kvernland 4 meter Combi (using the Acord Drill) with 3 rows of Suffolk Coulters, which was also a struggle to lift when the hopper was full.
I fitted a bigger set of lift cylinders to get over this which worked, but for the fact that it would break the rear axle Wishbone.
The latest Kuhn Combis, now fit a modified hopper much further forward, right over the power-harrow to alleviate the leverage problem associated with having the hopper too far back.
But even so, their 4 metre Combi itself is still almost as long as it is wide.

I had seriously thought of taking the tank off and placing it on the demount chassis above the rear axle, behind the cab. This would have been ideal, other than the fact that I need to get the whole Combi off quickly, to put my demount sprayer on the Fastrac to apply pre-em sprays. So in my case, using my NH 7050 on the Combi suits my system far better.

However, I have recently been experimenting with a complete change in Direction on 2/3rds of the farm, using this:
0365F005-5EB3-45C6-AFFD-4180E3B5B237.jpeg


And when it produces something like this for 1/8th the amount of diesel to establish a crop, compared to ploughing, Combi-ing and rolling, it certainly makes me wonder....................!
380AC419-FBEC-4C87-8CB2-0843ACE4D831.jpeg
 
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Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
What do you mean ploughing properly?

actually inverting soil 100% - if you can do this it has a place if you have bad grass weed or fertility issue etc you want to get on top of

other than that can someone explain to me what exactly you think ploughing or mintil cultivation are actually doing ? what do they change about the soil that means it’s suddenly possible for a seed to grow that otherwise would not happen ?
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
A Fastrac 2155 certainly has the HP to drive a heavy Combi such as the Kuhn LC 4000 Combiliner Venta with the system disc coulter, but doesn't have the lift capacity to lift it.
On my last one, a 2140, I used to use a Kvernland 4 meter Combi (using the Acord Drill) with 3 rows of Suffolk Coulters, which was also a struggle to lift when the hopper was full.
I fitted a bigger set of lift cylinders to get over this which worked, but for the fact that it would break the rear axle Wishbone.
The latest Kuhn Combis, now fit a modified hopper much further forward, right over the power-harrow to alleviate the leverage problem associated with having the hopper too far back.
But even so, their 4 metre Combi itself is still almost as long as it is wide.

I had seriously thought of taking the tank off and placing it on the demount chassis above the rear axle, behind the cab. This would have been ideal, other than the fact that I need to get the whole Combi off quickly, to put my demount sprayer on the Fastrac to apply pre-em sprays. So in my case, using my NH 7050 on the Comi suits my system far better.

However, I have recently been experimenting with a complete change in Direction on 2/3rds of the farm, using this:View attachment 914648

And when it produces something for 1/8th the amount of diesel to establish a crop, compared to ploughing, Combi-ing and rolling, I certainly make me wonder!

your fuel savings are the tip of a very big iceberg

i started notill to save money, now thats almost the last reason I would do it
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
actually inverting soil 100% - if you can do this it has a place if you have bad grass weed or fertility issue etc you want to get on top of

other than that can someone explain to me what exactly you think ploughing or mintil cultivation are actually doing ? what do they change about the soil that means it’s suddenly possible for a seed to grow that otherwise would not happen ?
It is as you say, the grass weed "Blackgrass" situation, why the plough+combi still has a place.
In my own situation, it was min-til that caused an explosion in Blackgrass on this farm, because it mixed the stubble surface seed throughout the soil profile.
I rectified this by 4-5 years of good ploughing and have got 2/3rds of this farm back under control enough that I am now able to try No-til.
Hopefully, the last 1/3rd will follow in a very few years to come.
In fact, I will be quite confident to establish next year's Winter Linseed on that last 1/3rd, because there is sufficient alternative Blackgrass chemistry available for it.
Meaning that maybe next year, the whole farm will be no-tilled!

BUT, I ain't selling my plough or Combi just yet!
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
It is as you say, the grass weed "Blackgrass" situation, why the plough+combi still has a place.
In my own situation, it was min-til that caused an explosion in Blackgrass on this farm, because it mixed the stubble surface seed throughout the soil profile.
I rectified this by 4-5 years of good ploughing and have got 2/3rds of this farm back under control enough that I am now able to try No-til.
Hopefully, the last 1/3rd will follow in a very few years to come.
In fact, I will be quite confident to establish next year's Winter Linseed on that last 1/3rd, because there is sufficient alternative Blackgrass chemistry available for it.
Meaning that maybe next year, the whole farm will be no-tilled!

BUT, I ain't selling my plough or Combi just yet!


mintill and “cultivator drill” plus rubbish rotation are 100% responsible for grass weed issues


a lot of commercial ploughing is just mintill really

farming and keeping on top of problems on the surface / top 2” is a lot less of a challenge than farming 10” of soil and weed seeds thats for sure !
 

Drillman

Member
Mixed Farmer
actually inverting soil 100% - if you can do this it has a place if you have bad grass weed or fertility issue etc you want to get on top of

other than that can someone explain to me what exactly you think ploughing or mintil cultivation are actually doing ? what do they change about the soil that means it’s suddenly possible for a seed to grow that otherwise would not happen ?
For us it’s all about removing wheelings Which would make even the best DD drill struggle to push seed into the ground.

min sure it could be done but would require some investment in tyres, auto steer and matching up of widths of stuff.
current kit would have to stay as well due to the type of contract work we do. So no funds there to set the ball rolling besides most of it it pretty worthless anyway.

On our acres such a move Would add a lot of initial cost which would take a long time to get payback on.
 

Farma Parma

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Northumberlandia
For us it’s all about removing wheelings Which would make even the best DD drill struggle to push seed into the ground.

min sure it could be done but would require some investment in tyres, auto steer and matching up of widths of stuff.
current kit would have to stay as well due to the type of contract work we do. So no funds there to set the ball rolling besides most of it it pretty worthless anyway.

On our acres such a move Would add a lot of initial cost which would take a long time to get payback on.

Thats my argument everytime & of course the weather.
i'll argue the toss that ploughing the right land will beat a DD crop everytime but it has too be the right land.
ive even Heavy Cultivated this year more than i ever have & so far its paying off. its not right for everything tho.
But sell the Plough.... Never.
same with Combination Drill.
 

Two Tone

Member
Mixed Farmer
For us it’s all about removing wheelings Which would make even the best DD drill struggle to push seed into the ground.

min sure it could be done but would require some investment in tyres, auto steer and matching up of widths of stuff.
current kit would have to stay as well due to the type of contract work we do. So no funds there to set the ball rolling besides most of it it pretty worthless anyway.

On our acres such a move Would add a lot of initial cost which would take a long time to get payback on.
Every farm is different and just because somebody does something in a different way to you, doesn't mean either you or they are wrong.

But I have learned something else re plough-combi based compared to No-til (though I'll stress here that I use a Weaving GD with 23 degree angled Disc drill for absolute minimal soil disturbance so as not to disturb Blackgrass, rather than a tine drill which many advised me to start off with!)
Last autumn this whole farm was plough-combi'd. It was a very wet autumn and winter and we had plenty of tramline wheelings far deeper than I would have liked. Despite this, I decided not to try to repair the damage ahead of using the GD this year and where I could, I drilled it all at an angle to last year's tramlines, without adding new ones, so as to use what are now the quite firm old ones.

Amazingly, apart from a very few deeper ones, the dry summer seemed to nearly level it all: Either the rest of the field also sunk as it dried out, or the Tramlines raised themselves back up to a level that isn't now too deep. Or both.

What has utterly surprised me is that the GD has successfully drilled through the old tramlines, rather than leave the seed on top to die. I hope I shall still see them in the spring!

After over 5" of rain in the past 3 weeks, you can walk across almost all of my GD'd land with your best shoes on and tractor wheels will not pick up dirt/mud using those old tramlines.
Much of the ploughed+combi'd land, this wouldn't necessarily be the case!


Why?
IMO, it is not having disturbed last year's stubbles and their roots that is acting as our drainage and maybe, even at this early stage for me, the worms weren't disturbed either, that is helping with the drainage too.
Pick any stone up, and you will find at least one worm under it and there are certainly obvious worm-casts on the surface.

But, I'll stress again that is here on this farm. Your's could well be different.
 
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Renaultman

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Darlington
i would agree they are “no worse than min-till cultivators”.

mintil is the work of the devil - grass weeds and slug nirvana, and still destroys soil structure and biology networks, not sure i can see any point in that, ultimately its just “bad ploughing” really - but I guess because it involves big sexy tractors it was a pretty easy sell
Not sure I agree. If you're only cultivating that top 4 inches, you're only mixing the weed seed in that same bit. We haven't used a slug pellet in years and ATM weed burden isn't any worse, yields are at least as good as plough combi and costs massively less. I wouldn't call a second hand Xpress or Vaddy particularly expensive or sexy either.
 

Clive

Staff Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lichfield
For us it’s all about removing wheelings Which would make even the best DD drill struggle to push seed into the ground.

min sure it could be done but would require some investment in tyres, auto steer and matching up of widths of stuff.
current kit would have to stay as well due to the type of contract work we do. So no funds there to set the ball rolling besides most of it it pretty worthless anyway.

On our acres such a move Would add a lot of initial cost which would take a long time to get payback on.

you only have wheelings because of cultivation, it’s a hamster wheel of doom !
 

Drillman

Member
Mixed Farmer
you only have wheelings because of cultivation, it’s a hamster wheel of doom !
I will disagree with you mainly because you have no understanding of our land or farming system.

Its possible it could work how well is debatable.

a neighbour is having a go and I’m watching with interest

but do feel it would require significant investment which I can’t justify
 

Bury the Trash

Member
Mixed Farmer
no til is a silly way of describing direct drillingit sort off implies that nothing happens like the fairies do the job and as far as improving the soil,well it doesn't do that either no pure arable farming does it cant by definition forage ie grass leys and livestock are the only ones that can do that ,
Some people don't half write some distracting comments don't they :rolleyes:

20201017_141930_resized (2).jpg

5 and half inches deep and soil being turned uphill cant do that with a horsh co 2 weavin double d or whatever...
mind you that wont be combination drilled either 😏
 

Chae1

Member
Location
Aberdeenshire
A Fastrac 2155 certainly has the HP to drive a heavy Combi such as the Kuhn LC 4000 Combiliner Venta with the system disc coulters, but doesn't have the lift capacity to lift it.
On my last one, a 2140, I used to use a Kvernland 4 meter Combi (using the Acord Drill) with 3 rows of Suffolk Coulters, which was also a struggle to lift when the hopper was full.
I fitted a bigger set of lift cylinders to get over this which worked, but for the fact that it would break the rear axle Wishbone.
The latest Kuhn Combis, now fit a modified hopper much further forward, right over the power-harrow to alleviate the leverage problem associated with having the hopper too far back.
But even so, their 4 metre Combi itself is still almost as long as it is wide.

I had seriously thought of taking the tank off and placing it on the demount chassis above the rear axle, behind the cab. This would have been ideal, other than the fact that I need to get the whole Combi off quickly, to put my demount sprayer on the Fastrac to apply pre-em sprays. So in my case, using my NH 7050 on the Combi suits my system far better.

However, I have recently been experimenting with a complete change in Direction on 2/3rds of the farm, using this:
View attachment 914652

And when it produces something like this for 1/8th the amount of diesel to establish a crop, compared to ploughing, Combi-ing and rolling, it certainly makes me wonder....................!
View attachment 914651

That's interesting. Haven't found anything my 2170 won't lift yet.

Plays with 5f es100 plough that a t3 6480 wasn't fit to lift.
 

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