Preparing for end of life - practical matters

[Jerry]

Over the last few weeks I been think long and hard about this and whether to post.

A few members on here know the current situation and it's been useful for me to talk/email/pm them about it.

Long story short dad who is mid eighties was diagnosed with an aggressive brain tumour a couple weeks back, prognosis is hopefully 6 months. Plan is not to treat tumour to fight it but rather to preserve his quality of life as best we can whilst supporting Mum so she is not put under too much pressure. To this end the NHS have been amazing and the palliative care team are going out of there way to get him home from hospital. Can't fault them. Hospice care being planned for in final few weeks.

Ok, so wills, IHT planning, trusts, powers of attorney etc are all in place or being worked on as required. Bit more work to do but both solicitors and accountants working well together.

I run the farm and have done so for some years, have one brother who is not directly involved but around when required. Both of us married and 2 kids ranging from 15 to 23.

Farm is diversified with barn rentals, caravan site and storage plus a couple of small industrial units.

I think we have ticked a lot of the legal and tax boxes and will continue to examine those positions in detail over the next few weeks.

But I'm looking for experiences in more practical terms of what happens with some one passing in a farm situation and are there any pitfalls or things I need to address.

I'm a partner in the business but have not been directly involved in some aspects much, that's caused a few glitches but power of attorney will sort those I think.

We are farming approx 400 acres, 90% owned outright. Mainly arable but growing sheep enterprise. Just me on my own 95% of the time with very good contractor drilling and combining.

I'm endeavouring to grow the business for the next generation, be that farm related or farm diversification related, prob a mix of both.

I would love to hear about people experiences in a similar situation, what will I miss or foul up, other than std tax/ legal stuff what do I need to consider and plan for, what surprises might crop up, where is a good source of info or support?

I want to plan as much as I can, but realistically know all eventualities can't be catered for or expected.

I'm not looking for sympathy, death comes to us all, as long longs as Dad is comfortable then I'm happy, but I don't want to prolong things just for times sake..

I'm preparing myself practically and mentally, not easy at times and I will admit I've struggled a few times.

 

[JP1]

I am not sure I can offer answers to the questions you ask in practical matters

I obviously knew nothing of your Father's health but as a fellow TFFer I want to be the first (and likely of many) to extend my sincere sympathies for you all at this very testing time

 

[matthew]

P of Attorney takes a while to lodge in place. 6 months when I did it for Mum.
Your circumstances may speed this up but fast it is not.

 

[Crabtree]

You have my sympathies too, I am already in this situation. My Father passed away about a month ago but he was only ill for 4 days so no chance for any last minute changes to the structure of the business (also a family farm partnership) .
I think what he put in place in terms of IHT planning over the last 20 years should prove to be astute but it is a long process to get the grant of probate and to satisfy HMRC so we won't really know the position for months, which is an additional worry as well as dealing with the loss of ones Father.
On a practical note make sure bank accounts will not be frozen and change mandates as required, the Executors of the Will have control of the estate after death and can do as they see fit to manage it. If you can, make sure Banks or Solicitors are not Executors or they will likely take a percentage of the estate. We will be trying to do all the 'donkey work' of collating all the information required (writing to Banks, obtaining share valuations etc) in order to minimise the time spent by our Solicitor. I'm sure others can share more useful information for you, but it sounds like you are going about it in the best possible way. All the best.

 

[tepapa]

Not sure how the banks work with a partnership but may be consider moving some money into an account you will have access to so you still have cash flow to pay bills and continue to trade incase the bank freezes the account until probate is granted.

 

[chaffcutter]

So sorry to hear about your father, but pleased you are being realistic about the situation as far as is possible. I agree 100% with @Crabtree as above. As you have diversified into let units etc the valuation of this stuff can have a big impact so pick your valuer carefully. If you later find that the will has flaws as far as tax is concerned, if the beneficiaries all agree it can still be varied retrospectively. Sounds as if a lot of thought has already gone into this so I hope it goes as well as possible.
Yes as above, when Mum died the bank froze our farm account and then we had to change all the dds, sos, payment details with everybody we dealt with, if you can arrange for the bank NOT to do this it would be a good move.

 

[Blod]

Edit,

 

[Princess Pooper]

My sympathies too. Although you have been running the farm, ask your Dad if there are any 'practical' things that he remembers that might be of use to you - eg where old drains are, when certain things were done historically and any issues that arose. You might already know all this, but something might have slipped through the net. When Fr in law died I seem to recall it went quite smoothly as my OH was a partner with him, we didn't have farm bank account frozen and RPA and other agencies were fine. There is information about how to deal with the 'normal' Govt agencies etc - there is a 'tell us once' system but this does not include the specialist farm aspects.

When he passes away, you will need several copies of his death cert to send to various organisations, keep a note of where they go so you can keep tabs on them being sent back. Make sure you have a good neighbour or similar who can help out with the essential stuff if necessary (eg caring for the sheep) when you need to spend more time with him and around the time of his passing.

On a more personal note, make sure he lets you know his wishes regarding to funeral arrangements, hymns etc - this often causes more heartache than anything else. Also find out his feelings with regard to organ donation - this topic comes up at a time that you are in mourning and if it has been discussed it is much easier to tackle. Despite being 85 and 'clapped out, Fr in law gave the gift of sight to 2 others because we agreed that his corneas could be transplanted but it had not been discussed beforehand and nearly became an issue with his other son. Make sure there is someone 'housesitting; on the day of the funeral as there are low-life who see funeral notices and see what they can knick when they think a farm is left unattended.
Above all, make the most of your remaining time with him. My Dad passed away with no warning after I had left home and it still tears me apart because I didn't have a chance to say goodbye and remind him how much I loved him.

 

[burr elm]

Not sure how the banks work with a partnership but may be consider moving some money into an account you will have access to so you still have cash flow to pay bills and continue to trade incase the bank freezes the account until probate is granted.

Very sound advice, when my old boss died his money was tied up for close on 2 years and like wise the business accounts took ages to sort out despite having co directors.

 

[Raynard]

Done key thing; partnership not sole trader. Ensure farm bank account set up as signing rights for you & other partners (mum, bro etc).

Check will is up to date.

Start chat now with bro, m & d on his wishes of how business to be split. Agree favourably, understand their may be short term beef but ensure that you would always be maintaining "off inheritance" banter. This should allow easy deeds of variations to amend will to pass on assets which may not fall under ag relief if passed on again to another generation.

Talk openly to your family about your old man. Far from great it's happening but don't hide from it; not that it sounds you are.

Puts a lot into perspective...

 

[Rossymons]

One of the "benefits" of Dads cancer was that it allowed us to get all our stuff in order. We had a very simple partnership arrangement where I became majority partner when we signed it. Less than 12 months later Dad passed away. So things like frozen bank accounts etc didn't happen for us and by the looks of it won't happen for you neither. The last thing you need is someone jabbing their fingers in your eyes whilst you've already been dealt a body blow.

When the time comes then brace yourself because in truth you don't have any idea how you will react to certain situations that on any other day you would react differently.

For me its just trying to apply a brake on myself every now and again. I have all these ideas fizzing out of me that I want to get done that I'm busy cracking on. But then I started getting cocky and I made 2/big mistakes in 24hrs. They didn't cost us much but I got them wrong. So make haste but slowly.

Ive also found theres no middle ground with my emotions most of the time. Life is very exciting right now - all these things ive wanted to do and waited so patiently to do are finally happening! Great!...

...but Dad ain't here to see it. Nor will he ever be again. It will catch you out when you least expect it. So whatever it is, just let it out and deal with it. You're only human, you love him lots and that's perfectly fine.

I can't offer much business/legal advice - it sounds like you have that in check similar to us. I can't imagine what it would have been like without having that stuff.

But the Human side is very different and I can't offer much help there neither as we're all very different.

But you will cry and you will miss him.

You will get people coming up to you saying "if you ever need someone to talk to" before they go on for half hour about their problems

You will get people months later still offering condolences which I'm finding difficult to take at the moment.

There will be times when you just want to stay in bed and hide.

But there will be times of excitement as the business develops and changes into your image.

You will remember many different things you thought you had forgotten about.
And you won't feel bad about it neither - your memories will be fond ones of him living, not sad ones of his death.

Most importantly life will go on.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Being "1st generation " farmer I'm not much use to your queries Jerry, but you know we're thinking of you and if I can help in any way anytime I will.

 

[Danllan]

Be certain that there is no ambiguity in re' any intentions in his will or otherwise, if drafted by a competent solicitor it should be fine (my uncle read through his will on video and added comments to make sure nobody would or could misinterpret what he wanted).

You are probably already aware that there are two types of 'Power of Attorney'; one for financial and one for medical matters, as written above these need to be attended to immediately. As for the business, being a partner makes things relatively straightforward. Get at least six death cert's, more if you have lots of policies to wind up.

This may sound odd, and is a hard question to answer, but is there anything you don't know about? My own father had several policies which only came to light some time after his death and probate was - we thought - done and dusted. And then I came across a long forgotten bank account... the point is, if he is up to it, be certain that you really do know everything.

Following a death both the authorities and the relevant businesses are universally helpful, if you have overlooked something they will make you aware of it and help to fix it. From what you have written I can't see that you'll have any administrative problems.

 

[Kidds]

I can offer little more than sympathy, which I sincerely do, and to say @Rossymons post is very much worth noting. Best of luck to you.

 

[David.]

It may not seem like it, but maybe better this way than Dad dropped dead suddenly and unexpectedly, with no time to say the things you need to say to each other.
My own maternal grandparents lived parsimoniously and treated their business affairs like State secrets, and when they died, my parents strongly suspected there was odd bits of money or a few shares here, there, and everywhere, but despite searches by their solicitors, bank, et al, very little if anything was found for eg, in dormant accounts etc. They may have had an unscrupulous adviser who cleaned them out; they may have spent evenings at the casino, which I doubt, but the point is, we shall never know.
So for goodness sake use the quality time left with your Dad to make sure you, or at least somebody trusted, knows the score, and where the skeletons are buried.
Best wishes to you all.

 

[Nearly]

We went through this at xmas with my dad (pictured left). Undiagnosed brain tumour causing strokes.
A friend who works on the stroke ward asked us if we would want him resuscitated if he stopped breathing etc.
We felt that we'd done the right thing when Mum and the rest of us agreed a 'Do Not Resuscitate' order on his medical notes.
I said a good few things to him before he went when he was (probably) aware but unable to move. The main thing I said was 'Thank you' for sharing his passion for farming with me and showing me how to be a man and a dad.

I've just got the shotguns in my name and fortunately he signed a fbt to me on a few bits of land that he still had an interest in and I paid him the first year rent.
There's £30k invested somewhere Mum thinks but I think dad cashed it to put into a business 15 years ago.

Don't forget that he's a Grandfather as well as a Father, let the grandkids have a chat with him and make a few memories for them.

Good luck, I miss mine a little but I'd have helped end his suffering long before he went if I could have. He said that he'd had a good life and that's all any of us can ask.

Neil

 

[kmo]

Once Rural Payments Agency find out about any changes in your business circumstances, they will not pay you any monies until they've verified everything.
In similar circumstances I went three years without any Basic Payments or money for TB reactors, etc, while they liaised back and forwards with my solicitors, (probate) about my change from a partnership to a sole trader.
Similarly HSBC made me open new bank accounts, when I changed from partnership to sole trader.
Notifying the RPA of the change to my bank accounts is what led to all payments to the business from them being froze.

 

[solo]

Just over a year ago I lost my father after 7 weeks in hospital. Whilst he was there It became evident he may not win the battle.
I have been running the farm for the last 20 years with both parents as partners. I moved capital to a new bank account in my name " just in case" so I could keep the business running without having to deal with that side too. I would then drip feed it back to the partnership account to pay the bills. In reality I needn't have done so and it was reamalgamated about 4 months later. Rural payments were easy to deal with just notifying them of one partner less and changing the bank account name with all other details staying the same.
Ensure your family who will have assets,money or nothing are aware of the wishes of your father and they are clear in the will.
Your mother will rely on you for lots of things from company, meals and practical help like providing a financial spread sheet so she can visibly see that her income is greater than her outgoings.
You will have dark moment where you feel isolated, but you have to be grateful for the good times you have had together. I was thankful that my father was able to have a retirement as he had underlying breathing issues for about 40 years.
Looking back a year on I think the only thing that could have been better was for my parents to communicate their asset planning with their children both in the will as well as a "letter of wishes." The trouble is they are of that generation where such matters weren't discussed at all.

Best wishes and kind regards solo

 

[Rossymons]

It may not seem like it, but maybe better this way than Dad dropped dead suddenly and unexpectedly, with no time to say the things you need to say to each other.

Thats certainly true in my case. We had 3 years with Dad to get everything sorted and prepare for it. Get it sorted he did. All the hedges were trimmed, the tractor finance sorted and the day before he died he completed all the first round of fert for me too. He passed away peacefully in his chair at home.

For me the real tragedy would have been if he fallen over and banged his head or got hit by a bus.

Throughout all of his illness its worth noting that Cancer is a word and not sentence.

 

[Jerry]

Thanks all, some very useful info and food for thought. Its has also prompted me to remember a few things that needed thinking about. Mind was churning over most of last night, probably partly due to the hot humid night as well.

I'm getting things in order on the farm and been sucking knowledge out of Dad's head as much as I can, simple things like where the water mains run across fields etc etc.

Im trying to be positive for Mum's sake but she is obviously very scared at the moment, she is not one to sit down and do nothing so keeping her busy helps her as well, but there are times she is very upset. Im here every day but dont live at the farm so worry about her in the evenings.

Im going in to see the bank next week, I do everything on line pretty much with it but want to talk face to face with some one to understand what they may or may not want or do when the time comes.

Im busy contact various other 3rd parties/areas of officialdom to make them aware of the position as well, whether that helps or not time will tell.

Thanks to who ever mentioned shotguns, completely forgot about that so have moved his shotgun over onto my license this morning.

Im pretty confident I have a handle on all his pensions and savings as I have been dealing with his Tax affairs for nearly 10 years, so that is OK sorted.

We are planning a final will review next week, both Dad's and Mum's. They are fairly simple and up to date so should not take much effort.

Im staying as busy as I can to keep me focused and not distress Mum, not great in the evenings though at the moment as I re-adjust, going to be very very odd not to have him around, even these last couple of weeks when he has been in hospital are strange as hes not there to bounce things of against.

Its odd though when people offer sympathy, or simply ask how he is, how it effects me, word is spreading so people I have not told direct now come up and ask......thats quite hard in a way if that makes sense.