Procross

[dairydurham]

Seen some recently and not sure about them. Has the holstein gone so extreme that the only way out for some is the Procross.What does everybody else think/ find ?

 

[organicguy]

British friesian onto a holstein. No brainer. Improve cow value, improve fertility, improve feet without loss of pedigree status. What's not to like?
(P.S I have a bull for sale!)

 

[More to life]

It all depends on what you want and how you manage them,I don’t think anything will touch a Holstein others will disagree

 

[Macus3]

Seen some recently and not sure about them. Has the holstein gone so extreme that the only way out for some is the Procross.What does everybody else think/ find ?

I brought a load of procross in from Sweden 3 years ago.As far as I can see they do nothing better or worse than the holstein and similar cull rates for the same reasons. But and it's a big but, the temperament of the whole batch was mental. Like kill u mental

 

[pappuller]

It all depends on what you want and how you manage them,I don’t think anything will touch a Holstein others will disagree

Come on farmer move out of the noughties get with modern breeding policies.[emoji44]

 

[More to life]

Come on farmer move out of the noughties get with modern breeding policies.[emoji44]

Come on farmer move out of the noughties get with modern breeding policies.[emoji44]

Doesn’t matter how many times you tell me there suckler cows

 

[had e nuff]

Seen some recently and not sure about them. Has the holstein gone so extreme that the only way out for some is the Procross.What does everybody else think/ find ?

Jersey's or hojo are the way forward.

 

[Macus3]

Seen some recently and not sure about them. Has the holstein gone so extreme that the only way out for some is the Procross.What does everybody else think/ find ?

I brought a load of procross in from Sweden 3 years ago.As far as I can see they do nothing better or worse than the holstein and similar cull rates for the same reasons. But and it's a big but, the temperament of the whole batch was mental. Like kill u mental

 

[Water Wheel]

I have a basic all grass, self feed / parlour concentrate system. Maybe Holsteins have changed and could cope with it now ,but 15 years ago they definitely couldn’t , they just fell apart and were hard to get in calf. Choice was change the set up or the cow. Cross breeding worked for me.
Holstein x Swedish red X Montbeliarde and round again. Is that a Procross?

Better milk quality , better health ,lower replacement rate, better everything, ok maybe a bit less milk at peak but there are so many positives to off set against the loss of peak yield. Life is just so much easier now.
With our home bred animals temperament just isn't an issue, though we do look at bull temperament when choosing bulls,
including temperament of the holstein bulls

 

[Scholsey]

I brought a load of procross in from Sweden 3 years ago.As far as I can see they do nothing better or worse than the holstein and similar cull rates for the same reasons. But and it's a big but, the temperament of the whole batch was mental. Like kill u mental

had a lorry load of swede heifers, mix of Viking Holsteins, Swedish reds and procross and were by far the easiest heifers I have trained in the robots, only issue were the small Swedish reds which just rattled around inside the robots. The full procrosses are so chilled.

 

[Sid]

No apologies for repeating myself.

Swedish reds production ,health and type traits are not dissimilar to Swedish holsteins.

It's about the breeding policy in a country not necessarily the breed itself.

Look at how variable the holstein is from country to country.

It's the sales patter....look at Ireland they will sell you a mixer wagon one day and a grazing bull the next!

 

[Holsteinfriesian90]

I think you’ve got to look at your farm and system also milk contract and decide what’s right for you. More and more are crossbreedIng Holsteins are not for everyone.

 

[Jdunn55]

I think you’ve got to look at your farm and system also milk contract and decide what’s right for you. More and more are crossbreedIng Holsteins are not for everyone.

Agreed, in the same way holsteins can work really badly they can also work brilliantly.

They need to be treated likes princesses and in return they'll reward you. You cannot expect to stick them in a field and hope for the best and get the same return they just wont do it.

I always reckon if one person can look after 100 cross breeds/grazing types (friesians, Norwegian reds etc) for example, the same person should only have 50-75 holsteins just because they need that bit more attention!

Holsteins can graze though - and they can do it well, they just need that bit extra help to do it well!

 

[Water Wheel]

No apologies for repeating myself.

Swedish reds production ,health and type traits are not dissimilar to Swedish holsteins.

It's about the breeding policy in a country not necessarily the breed itself.

Look at how variable the holstein is from country to country.

It's the sales patter....look at Ireland they will sell you a mixer wagon one day and a grazing bull the next!

Is the Swedish Holstein noticeably smaller than here in UK or USA?

Stature was a big issue when we used just Holstein bulls.
If you wanted a proven bull with zero to negative stature and positive constituents you were not left much to choose from.
The other big advantage of crossbreeding is it gets away from the inbreeding issue that creeps in as soon as you want top bulls throwing a particular type of cow.

 

[Jdunn55]

Is the Swedish Holstein noticeably smaller than here in UK or USA?

Stature was a big issue when we used just Holstein bulls.
If you wanted a proven bull with zero to negative stature and positive constituents you were not left much to choose from.
The other big advantage of crossbreeding is it gets away from the inbreeding issue that creeps in as soon as you want top bulls throwing a particular type of cow.

I learnt something about stature the other day, a bull with a figure of +20 (which is massive!) In real terms is only 4cm taller than a bull with a stature figure of 0

Makes me wonder wether it's really worth worrying about unless your cows really are turning into giraffes (which is a reality for some people!)?

 

[Water Wheel]

I learnt something about stature the other day, a bull with a figure of +20 (which is massive!) In real terms is only 4cm taller than a bull with a stature figure of 0

Makes me wonder wether it's really worth worrying about unless your cows really are turning into giraffes (which is a reality for some people!)?

Holstein uk standards suggests 3 cm per point , a range of 24 cm
3 cm per point seems a lot to me.

Ours were certainly to tall and long for our parlour and cubicles.
The crossbreeds are no lighter but fit our buildings

http://www.holstein-uk.org/media/legacyhw/Breeding%20for%20HW/Breeding-Linear-Assessment.pdf

Page 6

1:StatureRef. Point:Measured from top of the spine in between hips to ground.Precise measurement in centimetres/inches, or linear scale
1 Short(136cm)
5 Intermediate(148cm)
9 Tall(160cm)
Reference scale: 136cm –160cm;
3 cm per point

 

[Sid]

Is the Swedish Holstein noticeably smaller than here in UK or USA?

Stature was a big issue when we used just Holstein bulls.
If you wanted a proven bull with zero to negative stature and positive constituents you were not left much to choose from.
The other big advantage of crossbreeding is it gets away from the inbreeding issue that creeps in as soon as you want top bulls throwing a particular type of cow.

From what I saw in Sweden was that holstein and the red breed had the same for matching traits.

Inbreeding was an issue within the friesian breed few years ago due to numbers available, now its due to "fashionable" bulls!

I learnt something about stature the other day, a bull with a figure of +20 (which is massive!) In real terms is only 4cm taller than a bull with a stature figure of 0

Makes me wonder wether it's really worth worrying about unless your cows really are turning into giraffes (which is a reality for some people!)?

So why bother chosing any bull that improves anything? Just go for the breed average as the "better"bull isn't any better?

Heritibilty has also has to be taken into account aswell

 

[Jdunn55]

From what I saw in Sweden was that holstein and the red breed had the same for matching traits.

Inbreeding was an issue within the friesian breed few years ago due to numbers available, now its due to "fashionable" bulls!

So why bother chosing any bull that improves anything? Just go for the breed average as the "better"bull isn't any better?

Heritibilty has also has to be taken into account aswell

If stature is your main issue than sure make stature you main priority but if you have a major issue with low fats and your stature is fine and theres a bull with +0.5% fat but +20 stature why worry about the stature when at worst your heifers would be 4cm taller? Its just about perspective I guess

 

[Sid]

If stature is your main issue than sure make stature you main priority but if you have a major issue with low fats and your stature is fine and theres a bull with +0.5% fat but +20 stature why worry about the stature when at worst your heifers would be 4cm taller? Its just about perspective I guess

True,
But I don't like negative chest width.
And stay away from stature if possible.

It's about balance

 

[Jdunn55]

Holstein uk standards suggests 3 cm per point , a range of 24 cm
3 cm per point seems a lot to me.

Ours were certainly to tall and long for our parlour and cubicles.
The crossbreeds are no lighter but fit our buildings

http://www.holstein-uk.org/media/legacyhw/Breeding%20for%20HW/Breeding-Linear-Assessment.pdf

Page 6

1:StatureRef. Point:Measured from top of the spine in between hips to ground.Precise measurement in centimetres/inches, or linear scale
1 Short(136cm)
5 Intermediate(148cm)
9 Tall(160cm)
Reference scale: 136cm –160cm;
3 cm per point

Thanks, just looked back at the catalogue and it was the american catalogue so their standards r as ther than ours!!