Production Based Subsidies

Macsky

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Highland
In the case of real hill farming it had huge benefits for rural communities. Talking specifically about sheep, the production was in effect self limiting due to the harsh environment, but the number of ewes on the hill was maintained, and therefor so was the work, and the money to pay for it, plus all the knock on effects throughout the supply chains etc
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Tax breaks for active farmers would possibly be the most viable way around the WTO, or possibly the old NZ system of Subsidised Minimum Price?
(A pretty similar thing to what Formatted describes)
WTO ideals are less protectionism and freer trade - and my impression is that these type of subsidies are seen to detract from that mission statement a little, by reducing the need for competitiveness (ie protecting ag industry from market forces)
Reduced competitiveness probably doesn't make for lower prices, IMO of course.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
Famers in the UK already have loads of tax breaks, inheritance tax, red diesel etc etc
Yes, I was meaning more of that.. no income tax, business tax, or CGT
Basically - no form of taxation on active commodity producers is as good as a cheque..

..provided you actually turn a profit that would be taxed, of course.

If you can't, then a basic top up of up to say 25k per business as a living allowance, (or whatever name is put on it) but not enough for the BF to replace his combine with :(

Just throwing it out there, as I can't speak for the WTO ;)
...but that way the safety net is still there, and it would reward efficiency/profitable business better than an area payment can.

And possibly, help rectify some of the problems that the SFP has created, which have already been discussed to the death on here :facepalm:

Unfortunately the WTO is possibly going to be of the view, that it's simply a matter of produce to the world market price or import it from elsewhere. Not ideal for UK AG in the short term anyway, if at all.

Stuffed if I know, that's just an 'outsiders view' based on what I understand of the systems in place.

But to the OP- I doubt it would be WTO putting the stoppers on it; with the current emphasis on aesthetic and environmental protection and what's been spent on stewardship schemes to date, it would take a brave government indeed to even suggest a payment for farmers to crank up production. Perhaps as likely as an all organic UK... again, IMO.
 

Formatted

Member
Livestock Farmer
Yes, I was meaning more of that.. no income tax, business tax, or CGT
Basically - no form of taxation on active commodity producers is as good as a cheque..

But why? Many farmers (not all) own millions of pounds of assets and the only thing they did to earn them was to be born into the right family. Every tax break you give to help tenant farmers will be abused by those who least deserve it.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
But why? Many farmers (not all) own millions of pounds of assets and the only thing they did to earn them was to be born into the right family. Every tax break you give to help tenant farmers will be abused by those who least deserve it.
To keep farmers (and related industries) on the land, of course..

Personally- I believe subsidy as you know it will be a distant memory in a decade- to be replaced by carbon credit schemes and more stewardship type schemes. All about the environment and bugger all about food production.
You may well have to buy lamb that was marked at 6 weeks old :eek: or beef that was kept in a big shed instead of a little one :eek:

Your public mostly appear to not give a fat rat's fanny about farmer wellbeing or they would have shown it well before now!
They will see the negative images first of course.. "farmer Giles" with his big tractor sitting on millions of pounds worth of prime real estate- getting paid very well into both pockets :( reality is nothing like public perception as we all know.
But any of this will be decided by the majority, not the WTO.

That was my honest take, the cottonwool one probably has better comfort.
Could be a few 'ex-somethings' floating about post Brexit

Bugger, I was the first one to drop the B-bomb into a shiny new thread :censored::facepalm:
 

neilo

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Montgomeryshire
In the case of real hill farming it had huge benefits for rural communities. Talking specifically about sheep, the production was in effect self limiting due to the harsh environment, but the number of ewes on the hill was maintained, and therefor so was the work, and the money to pay for it, plus all the knock on effects throughout the supply chains etc

Some would argue (usually in The Guardian) that a subsidy based on sheep numbers, directly contributed to overgrazing and the creation of a barren wilderness that causes flooding downstream.....

Headage payments certainly meant lots of cr*p stock being kept just to make numbers up in some areas.
 

Macsky

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Highland
Yeah there was a lot of carp stock kept, but overall it still kept the money moving in small rural communities, where there is little other income sources. If it wasn't for tourism the Highlands would be in a bit of a fix.
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
There really does need to be some serious lobbying done to secure carbon credits for any land left in permanent pasture IMO.
Trees are not the only thing that 'are green'. They look more impressive than PP, but who can eat a tree???

Livestock farmers worldwide really really need to drive this message.
I'm actually quite amazed it's not a part of the HLS already- it's not new knowledge by any means. Grassland is more of a carbon sink than forestry - so long as permanent means permanent.

There is currently work being done in Australia to accurately calculate how much $$$ is in the soil per hectare - really just needs field data.
This was on my FB just a day or two ago, hopefully some real data will change the way our politicians, public, and importantly farmers base their decisions going forward.
Downside is, those with not such 'good practices' would then have to pay for releasing it, once those figures are in the public arena.
It would probably also be the beginning of the end for soluble nitrogen fertilisers..
And the beginning of regenerative farming / continuous cover cropping/ pasture cropping, being more than just something for hippy overseas farmers to tinker with..

https://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=htt...nlShIXWow1OHaybBLazOsNTHads_Wgbz30xqaEZ_Q&s=1

my very first link
hope it works
sorry if it's too OT
 

Kiwi Pete

Member
Livestock Farmer
red deisel is not a tax break
What is the price differential?
Anyone know the tax component of each?

Huge fuel taxes here, a litre is about $1.28 at the pump, I pay 85c and then claim on it so ends up around 72c
And everyone's making something on the deal!! The man says he's making roughly what I'm saving. Incredible.
 

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
What is the price differential?
Anyone know the tax component of each?

Huge fuel taxes here, a litre is about $1.28 at the pump, I pay 85c and then claim on it so ends up around 72c
And everyone's making something on the deal!! The man says he's making roughly what I'm saving. Incredible.
you dont know you are born.
petrol and derv is about £1.16 /litre which is over $2
red deisel is 47p /litre or 83 c
thats why nz has a competitive advantage, cheap road fuel.
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 77 43.5%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 62 35.0%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 28 15.8%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 4 2.3%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,286
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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