Production Based Subsidies

[Woolly]

Yes that would be interesting. Does Carbon Farm buy credits? Will you have any to sell? But at NZ$4 a unit hardly a fortune?

One problem I see is that once one has improved one's soil/land, you get no more credits/income. Of course one still has the non-monitory benefits. But if one lets the soil degrade, presumably you would have to buy credits?

One Q: If one continues virtuous husbandry of soil, can soil depth be increased? So there would be no reason for C sequestering to reduce over time? IE can we grow soil indefinitely, and if so at what rate?

PS: At a brief glance, your climate averages seem pretty similar to the lower parts of Wales, with Wales being a little more seasonal, I guess because you're 6degs nearer the equator.

 

[Guy Smith]

Guy Smith

Do you think the NFU can successfully lobby this as part of the Brexit deals?

• Improve how public perceive your industry
• Alter the current benefits afforded to farmers in a positive way
• Have tangible future benefits for food production due to reversing effects of "industrial agricultural methods"
• Let the farmers decide how best to achieve this goal
• Less problems with nutrient loss

Any change has to be adopted and suit the farmer to really work, long term, IMO
Look at the scooping of organic conversion payments as an example of what didn't really work.
(Plus beef and mutton taste considerably better than Sitka Spruce- look at NZ's rush into farm forestry in the 90s- often wasteful of the finite soil resources we all share)

Be interested to hear what you think.

I think the devil would be in the detail as to exactly how such a scheme would be designed and implemented. I'd also be wary as to what impact it would have on food production. There is a very easy way to mitigate any negative impacts of agriculture and that is to close it down and import your food needs. But I would not advocate that as a sensible vision for British agriculture.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

I think the devil would be in the detail as to exactly how such a scheme would be designed and implemented. I'd also be wary as to what impact it would have on food production. There is a very easy way to mitigate any negative impacts of agriculture and that is to close it down and import your food needs. But I would not advocate that as a sensible vision for British agriculture.

Fair points, Guy.
Cheers for the reply, I could forsee there would be a reasonable glitch in output alright- much like a mass-move to organic farming there is always going to be a transition period as things begin to percolate.
Our ministry of environment and the ag sector was of a similar opinion, to be honest.
Be great for the low input, dog-and-stick guys but would also cast a huge shadow over the dairy and cropping sector as it's not as easy as,, do a bit of web-surfing and turning off things that drive short-term productivity..
Output soon returns of course but it's that lag period and discovery that is the stopper here. We can of course offset our emissions through farm forestry - bit hard to get hay dry in a plantation though!
Our neighbour was farm forestry leader in the 90s and really went in hard, more stems than heads, and could hardly get fit baleage by the end..

 

[Woolly]

I think the devil would be in the detail as to exactly how such a scheme would be designed and implemented. I'd also be wary as to what impact it would have on food production. There is a very easy way to mitigate any negative impacts of agriculture and that is to close it down and import your food needs. But I would not advocate that as a sensible vision for British agriculture.

Might be a goer in Wales though, where I suspect many farms are in the 'green', something we should be making more of.

 

[Woolly]

Pete,
How long do you think you can go on increasing your soil carbon?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Pete,
How long do you think you can go on increasing your soil carbon?

Til there's none left in the atmosphere, or I start doing dumb stuff with my soils.
The more is there, the faster it accumulates, and the more profitable my business becomes.
Soil carbon levels and farm profit are tightly linked.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

That post possibly sounded a little arrogant.
But there isn't really any limit to what you C can get into it, you can pyrolyse organic waste and bury it in the soil if you want more, faster, than the sun can power it for you. Plenty of fuel drums in the world and all the "poor countries" are doing that already instead of burning.
It's as simple as burning from the top not the bottom and limiting the oxygen supply.
(Monkeys open the other end of a banana!)

Burn pits with a covering of soil as a lid, 2000 years old... terra preta
Stable carbon that will last for centuries, not just "roots shoots and leaves" carbon that will oxidize
Imagine if you were free to grow a hemp crop widely in your pastures and just let it rot over winter, we make our limits not nature..
And that sounded real hippy no I don't grow hemp

But you see what could be possible if that stigma was dropped, huge biomass growth
and stop those SUBSIDISED AD plants gobbling food!

Can other folk not see this?

It's not just Wales I'm worried about, mate!

 

[glasshouse]

I think the devil would be in the detail as to exactly how such a scheme would be designed and implemented. I'd also be wary as to what impact it would have on food production. There is a very easy way to mitigate any negative impacts of agriculture and that is to close it down and import your food needs. But I would not advocate that as a sensible vision for British agriculture.

Guy, what do you say to kiwi petes assertion that a growing crop takes in more co2 than trees per ha?

 

[glasshouse]

Guy Smith

Do you think the NFU can successfully lobby this as part of the Brexit deals?

• Improve how public perceive your industry
• Alter the current benefits afforded to farmers in a positive way
• Have tangible future benefits for food production due to reversing effects of "industrial agricultural methods"
• Let the farmers decide how best to achieve this goal
• Less problems with nutrient loss

Any change has to be adopted and suit the farmer to really work, long term, IMO
Look at the scooping of organic conversion payments as an example of what didn't really work.
(Plus beef and mutton taste considerably better than Sitka Spruce- look at NZ's rush into farm forestry in the 90s- often wasteful of the finite soil resources we all share)

Be interested to hear what you think.

organic payments did work, not for everybody, they never could, but a substantial number are still organic.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Guy, what do you say to kiwi petes assertion that a growing crop takes in more co2 than trees per ha?

The only real difference is it's about the only real case turning farm into forest.
And subbed, like AD. But then look at happens with clear felling; again just how wrong systems can be.

Steering via sub = fools rush in, IMHO

Germans utilise a fine example of alternative methods - 'plenterwald' - just take the tree you want and leave the rest - ideal for keeping the sink sinking - current production forestry methods mean trees are no "greener" than HLS ground.


I have made this pigeon my own and there just seems to be no belief that grass can do it because it ain't 30 feet tall in 20 years, I ask, how tall does grass grow each year?
How much leaf surface per square yard?

Met by stares and stonewalling.

This chap is mad!

 

[Guy Smith]

Guy, what do you say to kiwi petes assertion that a growing crop takes in more co2 than trees per ha?

It depends.....

 

[glasshouse]

It depends.....

Why is nfu not shouting this from the rooftops as farm after farm disappears under trees?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

It depends.....

Totally agree with you, it is easily offset by emission and practices/methods.

 

[Guy Smith]

Why is nfu not shouting this from the rooftops as farm after farm disappears under trees?

I'll confess I don't know the figures but I'd guess forestation of farmland is more pronounced in Scotland than in England so more of an NFUS issue than an NFU one.

But we do shout very loud about declining food production in the UK and an increase in imports.

 

[glasshouse]

I'll confess I don't know the figures but I'd guess forestation of farmland is more pronounced in Scotland than in England so more of an NFUS issue than an NFU one.

But we do shout very loud about declining food production in the UK and an increase in imports.

It applies to english uplands farms just the same.
The co2 sink value of farm crops is never mentioned, only the glorious trees .

 

[Kiwi Pete]

It applies to english uplands farms just the same.
The co2 sink value of farm crops is never mentioned, only the glorious trees .

Farmers are seen as environmental terrorists too often - and not only does that reduce our public image and increase the gap between the urbanites and the food producer, it's based on somewhat sketchy opinions promoted as fact on social media and other channels.

That's why I encouraged the groups to research here, talk of the town, it makes sense for farmers to lead the way in a positive manner.

Been a few years since the 1947 ag act, things have moved on

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Yes that would be interesting. Does Carbon Farm buy credits? Will you have any to sell? But at NZ$4 a unit hardly a fortune?

One problem I see is that once one has improved one's soil/land, you get no more credits/income. Of course one still has the non-monitory benefits. But if one lets the soil degrade, presumably you would have to buy credits?

One Q: If one continues virtuous husbandry of soil, can soil depth be increased? So there would be no reason for C sequestering to reduce over time? IE can we grow soil indefinitely, and if so at what rate?

PS: At a brief glance, your climate averages seem pretty similar to the lower parts of Wales, with Wales being a little more seasonal, I guess because you're 6degs nearer the equator.

Most of these companies are simply involved with administration and trading, basically a brokerage for emitters and sinkers to connect.
Your second point is completely the point that holds our ag industries out of it in the immediate future - the common practice cares about the looks of the environment and the perceived problems and dismisses this conversation as quackery - "maybe they think they earth is flat too"

The third point - how is topsoil made? The money issue neatly clouds and subverts attention away from the basic facts of nature, that's part of the experiment here based on different management strategies e.g.grazing rotation lengths and how much residue behind the stock, to see how best to build more topsoil - but an inch per year is achievable with cattle grazing, overseas 2 inches through no-till and covercropping.. sheep go lame in long grass until they can no longer contact the soil, in our findings here.
There is that much residue in some of my paddocks that I need to scratch through to see the soil surface, which is almost all roots and worm castings.
Much of this land was refenced in 2002 and the soil is already climbing the netting.

Most people are conditioned to accept that these methods are wrong, I know that.
The more active the nutrient cycling the more accelerated the process, growing scrub and rushes serves nobody but it is a good sink.
Same with Sitka spruce, and what's the best recipe to get it tender on the plate?

This is a better sink and can generate a profit off 105 ac of livestock - anything else "wrong" with that?

In a nutshell, if you keep it constantly covered and growing, you get paid back.

 

[Woolly]

Thanks for an interesting post with pics. That soil looks good - no layers or 'rust' marks.

What lays are you using?

What rotation lengths are you finding work best - guess it depends on stock density? What about parasites - we find a problem with mobs is an increased worm burden.

Interesting comment ref sheep going lame. Are you saying that if the grass is long enough, so their feet don't touch the soil, they won't go lame?

An inch/yr soil growth is truly impressive.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Perhaps someone like Neilo would like to comment on the benefits of non-inversion farming in Wales - from what I've seen and read he is an extremely progressive and well respected farmer, and should be building topsoil hand over fist with his current management practices. As so many probably are!
I.e. a bit of fert or glyphosate is not the end of the world - it's that end goal that is significant, not the details.
And that's where Brand-Organic farming falls down, HLS cuts it's own throat etc.
Too many rules.
Make soil and money should be everyone's goal.

 

[Woolly]

Yes I know NeilO, have one of his rams who has given us good lambs.

Interesting what you say about fert - exactly what our 'Farming Connect' grass man says, it's good for the bacteria.