"Project fear" proven right....GOVERNMENT WASTES NO TIME IN SHUTTING DOWN UK FARMS!!!!

[fgc325j]

a lot of smaller farmers are delighted about subs going as their big neighbour will loose his big cheque, not realising that they will eventually go out of business only to loose their farm to the same neighbour at a seriously knocked down price

Would a bank consider lending money to buy an asset which if 1. falling in value,2. and the income from this asset is not
supported by an adequate sub????

 

[turbo]

I have to say in the 5 years we’ve been trying things out there is a massive amount more knowledge out there now if you are willing to find it. I think people are becoming genuinely concerned that the chemical treadmill is coming to an end and we need look at it differently. Ag bill or not

The biggest trouble I see is we don’t get either extreme heat or cold to help with soil structure problems,the chemical side is just a side show as far as I am concerned,I am more min till now and have managed to establish winter crops without using glyphosate by using a well timed pre drilling cultivation pass where as when I dd it was used before every crop

 

[som farmer]

you make the mistake of blaming an increase in costs on subs when in fact its inflation to blame as pointed out i used to be able to legally employ staff at £3.40/hr i cant do that now and its not because of subs, my suppliers also have this issue, the price we get is due to world markets whether we support the uk or not this wont alter

not quite what I meant, subs have been used by farmers, to increase production, or basically to invest, to produce more, as most of us like to do. But, gen opinion on here, l/lords, buyers, have calculated for these, in what they pay us, the point is, we have used subs to progress our farms forward, but in reality, the subs are largely removed from us, by other trades, inflation, or deflation occurs, in the normal way by how our country is run, but farming produce, has not really increased its value in the last 20/30 years. What we have been encouraged to do, is increase production, which keeps prices low for the gen public. If the pattern of life, continues, as it has in the past, heaven forbid another war, but that is the way to increase food security here, and i'd hate that to happen.

 

[steveR]

Well apart from couch, that was everywhere, in a thick mat.....

Don't remind me!!

My late Uncle was farming a neighbours sandy farm when I arrived here in 76, the year of teh Big Drought. Post harvest (crap as I recall), the next 6 weeks was spent cultivating, rowing up and then burning Couch... Did it do much good even in that dry Summer....? Dunno, I doubt it though

Then 1978 the miracle occurred, yep, Roundup. One pass post harvest after all the stubble had greened up, and Couch gone. Old Boy's shook their collective heads and muttered into their glass of Manns. Hours and hours of men's time and gallons of diesel consumed, gone with a quick pass of the Sprayer.

 

[Bossfarmer]

Would a bank consider lending money to buy an asset which if 1. falling in value,2. and the income from this asset is not
supported by an adequate sub????

your missing the point a lot(if not most) of the bigger guys have outside money, flats/shares/other businesses etc

 

[Bossfarmer]

not quite what I meant, subs have been used by farmers, to increase production, or basically to invest, to produce more, as most of us like to do. But, gen opinion on here, l/lords, buyers, have calculated for these, in what they pay us, the point is, we have used subs to progress our farms forward, but in reality, the subs are largely removed from us, by other trades, inflation, or deflation occurs, in the normal way by how our country is run, but farming produce, has not really increased its value in the last 20/30 years. What we have been encouraged to do, is increase production, which keeps prices low for the gen public. If the pattern of life, continues, as it has in the past, heaven forbid another war, but that is the way to increase food security here, and i'd hate that to happen.

we are a drop in the ocean on the world markets so i cant agree with that, is russia and ukraine going to cut back production because uk farmers arent getting support? i dont think so, think about world markets for a minute and i am a tiny farmer, dyson is small

 

[farmerm]

we are a drop in the ocean on the world markets so i cant agree with that, is russia and ukraine going to cut back production because uk farmers aren't getting support? i dont think so, think about world markets for a minute and i am a tiny farmer, dyson is small

Absolutely. Productivy growth in UK agriculture has been pretty slow compared with some countries. 20 years ago Brazil was a net food importer... they now have more cows that people and it is not uncommon to find farms running 100,000 beef cows! Mega farms with high productivity and low costs of production are appearing all over the world. With or without subs that level of farm expansion and productivity gains has been and will continue to be impossible in the UK.

 

[farmerm]

What difference would it make if it is a small part of their turnover ? if its all their profit they are fecked

In those cases such growers are already only 1 bad crop away from being totally fecked anyway!

 

[B'o'B]

we are a drop in the ocean on the world markets so i cant agree with that, is russia and ukraine going to cut back production because uk farmers arent getting support? i dont think so, think about world markets for a minute and i am a tiny farmer, dyson is small

And all your moaning about the removal of BPS on this forum will achieve exactly zero effect in either Holyrood, or Westminster, or anywhere else that actually matters.
Watch the Oliver Walston video earlier in the thread from 1999 this is not new. Little seems to have changed in the last 20 years since that program was made. A lot of people make a lot of money out of Agriculture, very few of them seem to be farmers.

 

[fgc325j]

your missing the point a lot(if not most) of the bigger guys have outside money, flats/shares/other businesses etc

I still take the view that no bank would lend money to invest in a depreciating asset. If/when the crunch comes
banks will want to tighten up the security required when making loans to buy assets which won't/can't pay their own
way. And remember, if a crunch comes, the banks will look at all loans made on property investments, so anybody
wanting to borrow money to buy a farm and hoping to use houses,flats,industrial units as collateral, may be suprised
at how tardy banks will become.

 

[som farmer]

I still take the view that no bank would lend money to invest in a depreciating asset. If/when the crunch comes
banks will want to tighten up the security required when making loans to buy assets which won't/can't pay their own
way. And remember, if a crunch comes, the banks will look at all loans made on property investments, so anybody
wanting to borrow money to buy a farm and hoping to use houses,flats,industrial units as collateral, may be suprised
at how tardy banks will become.

the current price of land, not even sure small/mid farmers, should borrow to buy it, it would be hard to justify, the return on money borrowed!

 

[ollie989898]

I still take the view that no bank would lend money to invest in a depreciating asset. If/when the crunch comes
banks will want to tighten up the security required when making loans to buy assets which won't/can't pay their own
way. And remember, if a crunch comes, the banks will look at all loans made on property investments, so anybody
wanting to borrow money to buy a farm and hoping to use houses,flats,industrial units as collateral, may be suprised
at how tardy banks will become.

Welcome to the crazy crazy world of car finance!

 

[ollie989898]

If it’s that bad for farming up their then re-wild it.

I agree, there is no moral justification for pushing land that hard to make it pay, better to leave it well alone.

 

[farmerm]

I agree, there is no moral justification for pushing land that hard to make it pay, better to leave it well alone.

this is where I think there is a strong case for government or charity to have a fund able to buy marginal land at a fair value and put in in trust for the nation... though when marginal may soon include farms like ours, perhaps I am not so keen on the idea unless its a rather generous fair value.

 

[ollie989898]

this is where I think there is a strong case for government or charity to have a fund able to buy marginal land at a fair value and put in in trust for the nation... though when marginal may soon include farms like ours, perhaps I am not so keen on the idea unless its a rather generous fair value.

They already do, I don't see why the state needs to own land, or nutters like the National Trust. And I don't see why any of them should receive huge sums of tax payer cash either- again, step forward National Trust.

If the state deems it wise to protect land and wants it rewilded they should pay the owners compensation and designate it a national wilderness area. Only the second you do that, you will get a collection of ramblers, green-laners, nag riders and motorcross riders wanting access to it to do their own leisurely pursuits which sort of defeats the point of it.

 

[farmerm]

They already do, I don't see why the state needs to own land, or nutters like the National Trust. And I don't see why any of them should receive huge sums of tax payer cash either- again, step forward National Trust.

If the state deems it wise to protect land and wants it rewilded they should pay the owners compensation and designate it a national wilderness area. Only the second you do that, you will get a collection of ramblers, green-laners, nag riders and motorcross riders wanting access to it to do their own leisurely pursuits which sort of defeats the point of it.

How would government appropriately compensate owners for land permanently reverted to wilderness? Do they have to make payments indefinitely? That’s seems like poor value for the tax payers, it would also be a subsidy for owning land which you are against.. surely better to pay for it only once and put it into the management of the national Forrest or some other public body. What foolish private land owner would sign an agreement to devalue their property forever on a government promise of indefinite payments.

 

[Farmer Roy]

stolen off a friends fb page, so I cant take credit for it . . .

It is not that complicated
It is both possible and practical to build a system of agriculture that is productive, profitable, and enhances rather than de...grades our natural resources. The hardest part will be in changing the mental attitudes of producers and of far too many scientists. As Mark Twain has been credited with saying, "It is not what that fellow don't know that bothers me; what bothers me is what he knows that ain't so." A great deal of modern agricultural theory is based on a faulty knowledge base. Real progress toward a regenerative agriculture will come only when management is designed and implemented to benefit all members of the soil-plant-animal-wealth-human farm/ranch complex.

 

[som farmer]

stolen off a friends fb page, so I cant take credit for it . . .

It is not that complicated
It is both possible and practical to build a system of agriculture that is productive, profitable, and enhances rather than de...grades our natural resources. The hardest part will be in changing the mental attitudes of producers and of far too many scientists. As Mark Twain has been credited with saying, "It is not what that fellow don't know that bothers me; what bothers me is what he knows that ain't so." A great deal of modern agricultural theory is based on a faulty knowledge base. Real progress toward a regenerative agriculture will come only when management is designed and implemented to benefit all members of the soil-plant-animal-wealth-human farm/ranch complex.

spot on, modern ag has been fighting nature for years, me included, we simply have not looked after our biggest asset, the soil, on which our livey hoods depend. And we have got away with it, till now. 'Modern' ag only goes back to the need to produce more food, in ww2, till then, it was still pretty traditional, most farms had stock, which produced the fertilizer for the arable crops. WW2 brought in machinery, manafatured fertilizer, and sprays, and these changed the way farming had been. 75 years later, the buzz word is protect the soil, arable farmers are now looking for fym to rebuild fertility, and structure. The unpalatable truth, is that we have, in only 75 years, knackered the soil, in many cases. Good soil structure, will build fertility, retain more water, and absorb more carbon, and what is every green idealist talking about ? As farmers, we have to restart working with the soil again,

 

[fgc325j]

Welcome to the crazy crazy world of car finance!

Yeah! - i read an article between Christmas and New Year about car finance in the USA, where it stated that over 20%
of car loans taken out turned bad, when the first monthly repayment was not made.
Let's face it, if you were a livestock farmer and 20% of your herd/flock did not calve/lamb where would you be?.
It also stated that the second biggest provider of car finance, in the States was a subsiduary of Santander- the Spanish bank.

 

[Jo28]

spot on, modern ag has been fighting nature for years, me included, we simply have not looked after our biggest asset, the soil, on which our livey hoods depend. And we have got away with it, till now. 'Modern' ag only goes back to the need to produce more food, in ww2, till then, it was still pretty traditional, most farms had stock, which produced the fertilizer for the arable crops. WW2 brought in machinery, manafatured fertilizer, and sprays, and these changed the way farming had been. 75 years later, the buzz word is protect the soil, arable farmers are now looking for fym to rebuild fertility, and structure. The unpalatable truth, is that we have, in only 75 years, knackered the soil, in many cases. Good soil structure, will build fertility, retain more water, and absorb more carbon, and what is every green idealist talking about ? As farmers, we have to restart working with the soil again,

I'm not looking for fym, our organic matter is over 5% in most fields without livestock. We've just not removed any straw for years and years.