promises promises

Agrispeed

Member
Location
Cornwall
I've seen farms put into a trust with one sibling farming it and (from memory) paying rent or on a percentage of profit. Seemed quite sensible, but I suspect that it could be quite complicated to get set out properly.
 

Frodo2

Member
I've seen farms put into a trust with one sibling farming it and (from memory) paying rent or on a percentage of profit. Seemed quite sensible, but I suspect that it could be quite complicated to get set out properly.
Tbh you are just kicking the can down the road. With the added advantage that sons business has to pay rent so can't save enough to generate any capital to buy farm and daughters get a poor return on their investment. Meanwhile since no one actually owns it no one can use it as security for borrowings.

There really is no easy solution other than having non farm investments.
 

kiwi pom

Member
Location
canterbury NZ
With good arable land valued at 14000 + euros acre i would love your suggestions on how the gullible son who stayed at home working for keep and pocket money is going to pay off his siblings given that the returns from farming are totally at odds with the price of land.

There you go you've found the reason siblings get jealous. From their side they see someone that. Never had to leave home, never had to go and build a career or take a large financial risk as its still the parents farm. Basically done a low paid gfw job as its still the parents farm, never bought a house or paid bills and at the end of it all you get an asset that far exceeds anything you could have got yourself. It doesn't matter (to them) that you plan to hand it to the next generation. They see you sitting on an asset that you COULD sell if you wanted to or needed to.
A several million dollar farm is not in their eyes the same as a house deposit or help with uni fees.
I'm not saying its right, its just how they see it, especially if there isn't huge debt on the place.
 

kiwi pom

Member
Location
canterbury NZ
16 is the age to tell them, in fact earlier before school options are taken might be better.
No one said they have to start working at home at 16, just that they should be told the truth.

Tricky though isn't it, say you have a 18, 16 and 14 year old. What do say?
Ok 18 year old you get to work for me and take over the farm, you two will get a few quid to bugger off and work it out for yourself.
Better to let them all bugger off, perhaps with a few quid and talk succession later, when they've all had equal chances.
 

Cowcorn

Member
Mixed Farmer
There you go you've found the reason siblings get jealous. From their side they see someone that. Never had to leave home, never had to go and build a career or take a large financial risk as its still the parents farm. Basically done a low paid gfw job as its still the parents farm, never bought a house or paid bills and at the end of it all you get an asset that far exceeds anything you could have got yourself. It doesn't matter (to them) that you plan to hand it to the next generation. They see you sitting on an asset that you COULD sell if you wanted to or needed to.
A several million dollar farm is not in their eyes the same as a house deposit or help with uni fees.
I'm not saying its right, its just how they see it, especially if there isn't huge debt on the place.
Cant speak for NZ and but over here the older generation put great emphasis on continuity that the farm would stay in the family and each generation would add and expand it.Mark Twains advice still holds good and men of my fathers generation considered land as the only wealth worth having. The were very aware of the need to pick a sucsessor who would carry on the business of and protect it for the future. My old fella would have laughed at the concept of fairness . He would say life is never fair and only a fool expects it to be. He was a product of his time very hard on everybody but hardest of all on himself.
This is a disscussion that would take a whole day on the high stool to resolve and probably never will suit everyone fortunately for me i came out the right side of the farm inheritance issue but i know of several farmers struggling with big loans over family settlements.
 

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
Cant speak for NZ and but over here the older generation put great emphasis on continuity that the farm would stay in the family and each generation would add and expand it.Mark Twains advice still holds good and men of my fathers generation considered land as the only wealth worth having. The were very aware of the need to pick a sucsessor who would carry on the business of and protect it for the future. My old fella would have laughed at the concept of fairness . He would say life is never fair and only a fool expects it to be. He was a product of his time very hard on everybody but hardest of all on himself.
This is a disscussion that would take a whole day on the high stool to resolve and probably never will suit everyone fortunately for me i came out the right side of the farm inheritance issue but i know of several farmers struggling with big loans over family settlements.
Ireland is a bit different, since you burnt the landlords out.
 

Hooby Farmer

Member
Location
roe valley
Depends on timescale. Not everyone's is the same. My dad was at retirement age by the time I'd finished uni. He told me I didn't have to milk cows, but if I didn't do it at that point, the herd was going, cause he had kept it warm for me as long as he was going to. So I had to choose between travelling/working away, and coming back full-time at 22.

There is 48 years between my father and I, and I'm an only son. When i was about 7 my father sold off around 300acs of out lying farms and reinvested it in other projects. Leaving the home farm of 80acs. The reason was he didn't know I was interested in/going to farm. He didn't want it to be a noose round my neck if it wasn't for me. If it was my thing he would sell up the other businesses and get back in. That was a very bold move of a man of over 50 who only knew how to farm to venture into the unknown.
 

stewart

Member
Horticulture
Location
Bay of Plenty NZ
There is 48 years between my father and I, and I'm an only son. When i was about 7 my father sold off around 300acs of out lying farms and reinvested it in other projects. Leaving the home farm of 80acs. The reason was he didn't know I was interested in/going to farm. He didn't want it to be a noose round my neck if it wasn't for me. If it was my thing he would sell up the other businesses and get back in. That was a very bold move of a man of over 50 who only knew how to farm to venture into the unknown.
Extremely bold move and full credit for doing it, I hope the investments in other projects were successful.
 

glasshouse

Member
Location
lothians
There is 48 years between my father and I, and I'm an only son. When i was about 7 my father sold off around 300acs of out lying farms and reinvested it in other projects. Leaving the home farm of 80acs. The reason was he didn't know I was interested in/going to farm. He didn't want it to be a noose round my neck if it wasn't for me. If it was my thing he would sell up the other businesses and get back in. That was a very bold move of a man of over 50 who only knew how to farm to venture into the unknown.
But did it work?
 

rose pilchett

Member
Location
ie
Article in fwi this week I see they have concluded the case in favour of parents and the sister

56 year old brother whose worked on farm all those years and lived in caravan on farm now fully disinherited

Sister took sides with parents funnily enough telling court that the brother didn't like cows! She would say that wouldn't she when she stands to inherit

Any on here know more? Maybe brother would have preferred to go more profitable arable work strategy like lots of Lincolnshire farmers and motivation continually stymied by 'it's aye been' attitude of parents?

I always think there are 2 sides to a story and fear he's been done wrong by another set of elderly parents and conniving sibling with empty promises
 

stewart

Member
Horticulture
Location
Bay of Plenty NZ
Article in fwi this week I see they have concluded the case in favour of parents and the sister

56 year old brother whose worked on farm all those years and lived in caravan on farm now fully disinherited

Sister took sides with parents funnily enough telling court that the brother didn't like cows! She would say that wouldn't she when she stands to inherit

Any on here know more? Maybe brother would have preferred to go more profitable arable work strategy like lots of Lincolnshire farmers and motivation continually stymied by 'it's aye been' attitude of parents?

I always think there are 2 sides to a story and fear he's been done wrong by another set of elderly parents and conniving sibling with empty promises
There are usually at least 3 sides to a story, one from each side and then the truth.
It is a very sad tale that seems to unfortunately be a common occurrence, it does illustrate that a proper and fair agreement needs to be drawn up and written down so everyone knows where they stand from the outset.
 

Nearly

Member
Location
North of York
Did what work?
It would have needed to be a fair business to have kept pace with capital growth on farmland in last 20+ years.
Houses or Microsoft shares? ;)
Good to have a plan though.

My parents (of 3 of us) worked to have accumulated a house and yard for each of us. If we'd all have worked equally on the farm the land would have been split equally. As it turned out I was the keen one, and got about 200 acres, (3/4) and the rest added value to the houses.
There has been a sibling go before parents died, to complicate things, but we're all sorted now

You can plan but things change. Everyone needs to know where the shareout is based or you're heading for trouble.
I'm already talking to our kids, 20 and 17, about possible scenarios in the distant future, with whatever is left after we've stopped being a drain on the assets.
We sign power of attorney forms in Jan when youngest is 18.

Talk!
No one gets out of this life alive.
 

The Agrarian

Member
Location
Co Antrim
Ok. For sake of argument, what do folks think about deliberately splitting your assets unevenly between your children, if one or more has behaved poorly towards you or other siblings, or has against advice married someone of low quality who is likely to be a threat to the family, or the family assets, for example?

Assume for simplicity that none of them work for the family business.
 

Nearly

Member
Location
North of York
Ok. For sake of argument, what do folks think about deliberately splitting your assets unevenly between your children, if one or more has behaved poorly towards you or other siblings, or has against advice married someone of low quality who is likely to be a threat to the family, or the family assets, for example?

Assume for simplicity that none of them work for the family business.
The ultimate retribution from beyond the grave. :eek:
If I felt that way I'd want to give everything away while I was still well enough to see the fallout.

If they had done some or all of that and 'I' decide to punish them then the next generation or two are going to be fecked up too.

Rise above it all? :unsure:
 

primmiemoo

Member
Location
Devon
Ok. For sake of argument, what do folks think about deliberately splitting your assets unevenly between your children, if one or more has behaved poorly towards you or other siblings, or has against advice married someone of low quality who is likely to be a threat to the family, or the family assets, for example?

Assume for simplicity that none of them work for the family business.

I studied King Lear for skool exams. The silly old buffer failed to notice the child who loved him best, and cut her out in favour of his other daughters who had cynically, entitledly, and greedily "kept in" with the old man.

The Law now permits appeals against Wills, which is how this thread was started, so, unlike in Shakespeare's day, there's an established framework to examine the various partys's (sp? Sorry, the internal spellchecker is on the blink) perceptions of a Will.

From what I understand, when a Will is made, it's made. A carefully detailed explanation for the reasoning behind it would make its acceptance easier should it be a potentially contentious matter, though.

Better still to sort it all out before the big D.?
 

Cropper

Member
Location
N. Glos
I don’t know which cloud cuckoo land you’re all living in if you think farming a small farm makes enough profit to :
(a). Live off
And (b) Pay off half (or three quarters or more) of the capital value of said farm to non farming siblings.

This is because the capital value of farmland is totally unrelated to its earning potential due to external factors like tax advantages and exchange rates. The reason this country has farms that are a decent size is because they have traditionally been left to only one offspring (usually eldest son) and not split up between numerous children over several generations so that each individual only owns a couple of acres here and there.
A more equitable way of leaving a farm would be to leave the land and buildings to the farming sibling, on the proviso that should it be sold in the future a share of the proceeds be given to the other siblings.
Any other non farming assets could be divided between the non farming siblings, if there aren’t any it’s probably a sign that the farm isn’t going to making huge profits.
 

David.

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
J11 M40
Surely the aim has to be to better the family, the farm is just a vehicle.
I agree, but bettering the family may mean that fair doesn't necessarily mean financially equal splits.
It may mean helping fund those whose interest lies away from a cow's tail to get an education, and thus a career that allows them to earn "fees", rather than a basic wage.
By all means let these siblings benefit from the parents accumulated estate outside the value of the actual land itself, but i cannot see how splitting the earning asset, or having to keep re-buying it every 30 years benefits the family in any way.
 
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