promises promises

[The Agrarian]

I think that's a good summary of my view. The Jews figured that out several thousand years ago, that if you had forteen children, you didn't split your estate fourteen ways, or there'd be nothing left to work with.

 

[Cowcorn]

I agree, but bettering the family may mean that fair doesn't necessarily mean financially equal splits.
It may mean helping fund those whose interest lies away from a cow's tail to get an education, and a career that allows them to earn "fees", rather than a basic wage.
By all means let these siblings benefit from the parents accumulated estate outside the value of the actual land itself, but i cannot see how splitting the earning asset, or having to keep re-buying it every 30 years benefits the family in any way.

Bang on the money in both of your posts David , a scenario like Denmark where a farm has to be purchased of the parents is only good for the banks and the taxman who have the gift that keeps on giving. Then the young farmer up to his eyes in debt has to spend his working life paying of the loan whats fair about that ??? As cropper rightly pointed out if you want to be cash rich keep away from farming. My father was not a well educated man but he had more drive and gumption than many and yes he improved the family sent them to good schools uni and made every opportunity available to his children. He only really cared deeply about his farm and its future after all he and his forefathers had spent their lives in hock to banks paying for various bits of land and improving the place. And he would be back to haunt me if he taught i would split it or allow any of it be sold .

 

[The Agrarian]

I studied King Lear for skool exams. The silly old buffer failed to notice the child who loved him best, and cut her out in favour of his other daughters who had cynically, entitledly, and greedily "kept in" with the old man.

The Law now permits appeals against Wills, which is how this thread was started, so, unlike in Shakespeare's day, there's an established framework to examine the various partys's (sp? Sorry, the internal spellchecker is on the blink) perceptions of a Will.

From what I understand, when a Will is made, it's made. A carefully detailed explanation for the reasoning behind it would make its acceptance easier should it be a potentially contentious matter, though.

Better still to sort it all out before the big D.?

Very valid point. So we don't disagree on the principle of unequal division, but you question if it is open to abuse? Very possible.

In theory, the parents in this process should be intelligent, impartial, wary of manipulation, and just arbiters. In practice this may not always be the case. However, I very much doubt that a court is any better placed to make a good judgement, long after the water has passed under the bridge, and in the absence of two key witnesses.

I think the worst decisions are likely made in old age. One's field of vision becomes much narrower, and more subject to influence. Best if possible to have these decisions finalised by the age of 65 or 70.

 

[primmiemoo]

Very valid point. So we don't disagree on the principle of unequal division, but you question if it is open to abuse? Very possible.

In theory, the parents in this process should be intelligent, impartial, wary of manipulation, and just arbiters. In practice this may not always be the case. However, I very much doubt that a court is any better placed to make a good judgement, long after the water has passed under the bridge, and in the absence of two key witnesses.

I think the worst decisions are likely made in old age. One's field of vision becomes much narrower, and more subject to influence. Best if possible to have these decisions finalised by the age of 65 or 70.

Dad had finalised his by the time he was 45, but then, he'd had some rather bad news ... . I'm wa-a-ay away from the age range you've mentioned, but I've a framework in place, and have revised it once already.

No, I don't disagree with inequality of division of material goods. But I do disagree with there being no explanation for it accompanying the Will, or no account taken of positive aptitudes of the individual despite perceived negatives toward them in the mind of the person making their Will. That's where a good solicitor is so important.

A well targeted monetary legacy might be as valuable to a beneficiary as a couple of hundred acres to another. Of course, we attach pecuniary value to that ground for valuation that might be massively greater than bequeathed money - and that can look unfair if only the bottom line is held dear, but it could be the right thing to do. There are caveats that can be attached to bequests, afaik.

Feel I'm fortunate atm, in that there's nobody who's obviously inveigling around me, but I'm thinking of drawing up both sorts of Power of Attorney*, nevertheless.


*heard a sorry story from someone who's parent had signed only the one PoA, and then was taken so ill that parent needed both. The adult children found it very difficult indeed to have the local authority take over decision for their parent's care.

 

[essexpete]

Dad had finalised his by the time he was 45, but then, he'd had some rather bad news ... . I'm wa-a-ay away from the age range you've mentioned, but I've a framework in place, and have revised it once already.

No, I don't disagree with inequality of division of material goods. But I do disagree with there being no explanation for it accompanying the Will, or no account taken of positive aptitudes of the individual despite perceived negatives toward them in the mind of the person making their Will. That's where a good solicitor is so important.

A well targeted monetary legacy might be as valuable to a beneficiary as a couple of hundred acres to another. Of course, we attach pecuniary value to that ground for valuation that might be massively greater than bequeathed money - and that can look unfair if only the bottom line is held dear, but it could be the right thing to do. There are caveats that can be attached to bequests, afaik.

Feel I'm fortunate atm, in that there's nobody who's obviously inveigling around me, but I'm thinking of drawing up both sorts of Power of Attorney*, nevertheless.


*heard a sorry story from someone who's parent had signed only the one PoA, and then was taken so ill that parent needed both. The adult children found it very difficult indeed to have the local authority take over decision for their parent's care.

The last part very important. I was told that to obtain P o A after an event can take months through the legal system and thereafter requires renewal every year at some considerable cost.

 

[Bossfarmer]

I agree, so the fallback is the farm is shared, or sold. Or the parents could do the responsible thing and limit their output of children to a sensible number.

How could it be fair for your older brother/ sister to be given a silver spoon, just for being born earlier? Above all else, I want any offspring of mine to learn fairness and equity.

Edit - I don't like the word gullible. All parties deserve to know their legal position, and be given equal rights to work for a decent wage, deferred or not.

equal and fair are not the same thing in farming(if its to be carried on which is the point of most farms) its up to the parents to decide its their farm afterall

 

[Bossfarmer]

The last part very important. I was told that to obtain P o A after an event can take months through the legal system and thereafter requires renewal every year at some considerable cost.

PoA requires renewal every year? what if they are in a home?

 

[Bossfarmer]

I don’t know which cloud cuckoo land you’re all living in if you think farming a small farm makes enough profit to :
(a). Live off
And (b) Pay off half (or three quarters or more) of the capital value of said farm to non farming siblings.

This is because the capital value of farmland is totally unrelated to its earning potential due to external factors like tax advantages and exchange rates. The reason this country has farms that are a decent size is because they have traditionally been left to only one offspring (usually eldest son) and not split up between numerous children over several generations so that each individual only owns a couple of acres here and there.
A more equitable way of leaving a farm would be to leave the land and buildings to the farming sibling, on the proviso that should it be sold in the future a share of the proceeds be given to the other siblings.
Any other non farming assets could be divided between the non farming siblings, if there aren’t any it’s probably a sign that the farm isn’t going to making huge profits.

this is the simplest and most obvious way to do it

 

[primmiemoo]

PoA requires renewal every year? what if they are in a home?

I think there's a requirement to renew if the application has been made retrospectively, but happy to be corrected if not right. I think it continues to run if everything's been set up in advance.

 

[matthew]

I think there's a requirement to renew if the application has been made retrospectively, but happy to be corrected if not right. I think it continues to run if everything's been set up in advance.

If Lasting Power of Attorney is made by the person him/her self, and lodged with the Office of the Public Guardian, then it it deemed to be the wishes of that person.
If as described, it has to be applied for by others, then other rules kick in including annual accountability.

There are two sections now: Finance and Property is one and Health and Care (maybe not be quite the correct wording) is the other.

Both are best lodged well before you think you will / may need them.

You also need a referee to countersign and support the choice of persons. It takes about 6 months to lodge and be active.

 

[Hooby Farmer]

@Nearly you are right about capital growth nothing would really compare to farmland or how it's a fairly "safe" investment. He did indeed invest in property, we got in early before the crazy stage but around 2010 values were on the floor but thankfully we were in the position to see it through unscathed. The one thing about land is that it doesn't put any worthwhile money in your pocket as its value grows unless it's the exception of building land.

 

[Red Fred]

We only had 40 acres and the buildings, but when we were sorting it out, we decided between ourselves that the only fair way to proceed was to split it between me and my sisters equally, so mum did it that way. The reasoning was that any agricultural income from the farm was tiny compared to its sale price/development value/ building rental income, so it was the only fair way and we might all have some retirement income from it.
Only stumbling blocks are that someone has to manage it for the others who aren't here, and getting everyone to agree what to do can be like herding cats.
My problem is that I was single until I reached 50, being like many farm offspring and devoting too much time to the farm. This was not anyone else's fault, but the family were happy as there was no threat to the status quo, and the nephews and neices could count on having everything when I'm gone. As soon as I found a partner, the grumblings started as we had a newcomer in the mix and there might even be more children . I have recently been trying to sort my will, and innocently went to the family solicitors thinking that I could just leave my share of the farm to Mrs Fred and my choice of dependants, but the solicitor seemed horrified and said I shouldn't do that as it would cause "all sorts of trouble" if I didn't leave it to the nephews and neices (who have never shown the slightest interest in the farm). At present, I don't know what to do as I really can't sign off my will if it is not what I want, but wonder if the solicitor is just being pragmatic?

 

[Sharpy]

We only had 40 acres and the buildings, but when we were sorting it out, we decided between ourselves that the only fair way to proceed was to split it between me and my sisters equally, so mum did it that way. The reasoning was that any agricultural income from the farm was tiny compared to its sale price/development value/ building rental income, so it was the only fair way and we might all have some retirement income from it.
Only stumbling blocks are that someone has to manage it for the others who aren't here, and getting everyone to agree what to do can be like herding cats.
My problem is that I was single until I reached 50, being like many farm offspring and devoting too much time to the farm. This was not anyone else's fault, but the family were happy as there was no threat to the status quo, and the nephews and neices could count on having everything when I'm gone. As soon as I found a partner, the grumblings started as we had a newcomer in the mix and there might even be more children . I have recently been trying to sort my will, and innocently went to the family solicitors thinking that I could just leave my share of the farm to Mrs Fred and my choice of dependants, but the solicitor seemed horrified and said I shouldn't do that as it would cause "all sorts of trouble" if I didn't leave it to the nephews and neices (who have never shown the slightest interest in the farm). At present, I don't know what to do as I really can't sign off my will if it is not what I want, but wonder if the solicitor is just being pragmatic?

Get a new solicitor!

 

[Red Fred]

Get a new solicitor!

That's actually the conclusion I had reached as it appears the family solicitor has been nobbled

 

[matthew]

Get a new solicitor!

My thoughts exactly. This ‘family’ solicitor is not working for you.

 

[essexpete]

Yes Fred get a new solicitor. They are not there to tell you how you distribute your assets. F'ing cheek. If you want to provide for Mrs Fred but ultimately I leave to extended family you might be able to set up some kind of life trust. Your new solicitor would advise.