- Location
- Exeter, Devon
I hope you’re right. We’ll find out in the morning.
Public Accounts Committee enquiry into ELMS
- Thread starter delilah
- Start date
Steevo
Member
- Location
- Gloucestershire
There was a minor headline article in the Telegraph about it today…..that then mainly went on to ramble about energy costs for the majority of the article.
Steevo
Member
- Location
- Gloucestershire
Green payments for farmers could lead to ‘big increase’ in food prices
Government plans for scheme to replace EU agricultural subsidies based on ‘blind optimism’, warns Commons committee
www.telegraph.co.uk
Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Yes, I hate t say this and will be shot down in the next few posts but I wonder if anyone out there is actually that bothered about subsidies to farmers, except farmers of course. Apologies for such an heretic statement. Yes the PAC report is damning but 'so what' I will watch to see if any of the Political columnists run with it to batter the government - if not then I will assume it is a 'backwater' item. Sorry.
Steevo
Member
- Location
- Gloucestershire
The article I linked to also refers to a piece by Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Chairman of PAC) which I’ve just searched to find and was written yesterday….
COMMENT
GEOFFREY CLIFTON-BROWN8 January 2022 • 9:00pm
I am one of the few farmers in the House of Commons, so I have been well placed to examine the Government’s plans for the post-Brexit future of farming. The Public Accounts Committee, of which I am deputy chair, investigates the value for money provided by Government projects. Today, we are publishing our report into the Government’s flagship Environmental Land Management scheme (ELMs).
At the centre of ELMs are changes to the mechanism for distributing funding, previously done via the EU’s CAP payments, to a system – due to launch fully in 2024 – where farmers will be paid for environmental and productivity improvements. The Government has stated that all the objectives of ELMs will be delivered for just over £2 billion, a target declared ambitious by the PAC members during the hearing.
There are three components to the project: the Sustainable Farming Initiative (SFI) for all farmers to be paid to manage their land in an environmentally friendly way; the Local Nature Recovery Strategies for more complex projects; and the Landscape Recovery for large-scale projects such as peatland restoration.
Due to the natural cycle of animals or plants it can take 2 years or more for the farmers executing the schemes to implement them, so timely information is vital. Much of the information concerning how these schemes will operate is coming out very late for farmers to implement.
Another problem is the average age of farmers – 59. I know from my own farm that my son, who is in his 30s, is far more adept at adopting new technology and innovation is central to the success of the scheme. The third aim of ELMs is to help young people who wish to enter agriculture.
As the report makes clear, without subsidies farms in England make an average net profit of just £22,800 a year. There is a real fear among small and tenant farms that many will go out of business and the average size of farms will increase. ELMs should have a part to play in protecting small and tenant farms.
This scheme will require a significant amount of land taken away from agricultural use. Officials are very clear that ELMs will promote increased efficiency on the remaining land, but they were not so clear on the amount of food that will need to be imported as a result. I do not think the public will thank us if, a few years down the road, there is either a big increase in prices or, worse, a shortage of food. We need to get to a point where we produce more than 50 per cent of the food that we eat in this country. The officials and panel experts we interviewed avoided the question of whether ELMs would result in more imported food and consequently Britain effectively exporting environmental problems.
All in all, many farmers are going to need to generate greater returns if they are to survive – whether from Government schemes, increased productivity or higher prices from the market.
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown is deputy chairman of the Public Accounts Committee
www.telegraph.co.uk
COMMENT
The public won't forgive food shortages
Major questions about the Government's farming reforms are yet to be answeredGEOFFREY CLIFTON-BROWN8 January 2022 • 9:00pm
I am one of the few farmers in the House of Commons, so I have been well placed to examine the Government’s plans for the post-Brexit future of farming. The Public Accounts Committee, of which I am deputy chair, investigates the value for money provided by Government projects. Today, we are publishing our report into the Government’s flagship Environmental Land Management scheme (ELMs).
At the centre of ELMs are changes to the mechanism for distributing funding, previously done via the EU’s CAP payments, to a system – due to launch fully in 2024 – where farmers will be paid for environmental and productivity improvements. The Government has stated that all the objectives of ELMs will be delivered for just over £2 billion, a target declared ambitious by the PAC members during the hearing.
There are three components to the project: the Sustainable Farming Initiative (SFI) for all farmers to be paid to manage their land in an environmentally friendly way; the Local Nature Recovery Strategies for more complex projects; and the Landscape Recovery for large-scale projects such as peatland restoration.
Due to the natural cycle of animals or plants it can take 2 years or more for the farmers executing the schemes to implement them, so timely information is vital. Much of the information concerning how these schemes will operate is coming out very late for farmers to implement.
Another problem is the average age of farmers – 59. I know from my own farm that my son, who is in his 30s, is far more adept at adopting new technology and innovation is central to the success of the scheme. The third aim of ELMs is to help young people who wish to enter agriculture.
As the report makes clear, without subsidies farms in England make an average net profit of just £22,800 a year. There is a real fear among small and tenant farms that many will go out of business and the average size of farms will increase. ELMs should have a part to play in protecting small and tenant farms.
This scheme will require a significant amount of land taken away from agricultural use. Officials are very clear that ELMs will promote increased efficiency on the remaining land, but they were not so clear on the amount of food that will need to be imported as a result. I do not think the public will thank us if, a few years down the road, there is either a big increase in prices or, worse, a shortage of food. We need to get to a point where we produce more than 50 per cent of the food that we eat in this country. The officials and panel experts we interviewed avoided the question of whether ELMs would result in more imported food and consequently Britain effectively exporting environmental problems.
All in all, many farmers are going to need to generate greater returns if they are to survive – whether from Government schemes, increased productivity or higher prices from the market.
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown is deputy chairman of the Public Accounts Committee
The public won't forgive food shortages
Major questions about the Government's farming reforms are yet to be answered
www.telegraph.co.uk
Steevo
Member
- Location
- Gloucestershire
Probably about right.
The only people who really seem to be interested are the media…..most specifically the BBC. We farmers could be forgiven for thinking they speak for the sentiment of the population as a whole….but I think not.
- Location
- Sedgefield
So it says here—-
“”The Department asserts that environmental benefits can be delivered
alongside improvements in farm productivity, and that these improvementswill
mean that, despite taking land out of production to deliver environmental benefits,
farmers can produce more food from the remaining land.””
How can farmers produce more food if land is taken out of production for the scheme
if we could produce more food do you not think we’d be doing so on all our land already
especially when you factor in the price of fertilizer and increase in sprays and other units and the crazy manure rules
there will be vastly reduced food production
There will be empty shelves
For sure
once you have to rely on importing your food market forces will push the price up
“You want this ( insert am abroad place) bread sending over to your little island Mr English ?? It’ll be £10 a loaf please “”
Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
This was all stated in the Health and Harmony report 2018, following the consultation process Spring of 2018. I went to one at Calke Abbey. Nice day out! In the report Defra forecasts / expects rents to fall and farms to rationalise so sharing machinery for example. The report did set out I thought the bones of what Defra is now aiming to deliver. At Calke Abbey there were about 80 or so representatives of Ramblers, wildlife trusts, local government, Peak Park etc, and two farmers. The local NFU man from Uppingham spotted me and asked me to be a token 'farmer' for the day in the focus groups I attended as part of the proceedings.
Last edited:
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
Makes me wonder when the sh!te is really going to hit the fan about ELMs having read the PAC reports.
Thank you @delilah for highlighting it.
What still sticks in my craw the most is that in its title, it doesn’t mention the prime objective of all farming, being food production!
It’s all very well trying to promote a more environmentally friendly way of producing food, but to completely avoid the word “food” in its title, is beyond belief!
And as farmers’, everything we do to produce any food, involves capturing sunlight, water and CO2 to sequester as much Carbon as we can, as fast as we can!
Not in 25 years time, which is how long any tree takes, before in becomes Carbon neutral.
As for inventing a scheme that will support the biggest farmers/land owners is a joke. Bitter experience has shown that trying to get farmers to join together doesn’t work well and often end in tears. The idea of any of them doing so or environmental reasons for LR and LNR, is doomed to failure!
It’ll never work. It’s as simple as that!
Not to mention what the the Public will think when this so called “Public good” fiasco is exposed.
How much of our BPS reductions money is going to be wasted before before a PAC scraps most of ELMs and just concentrates on the SFI side of it, without taking chunks of land out of food production?
It’s just far too complicated and will end up exactly how that new computerised SPS system did a few years ago, when they had to revert back to the paper system at the very last minute.
The whole idea is flawed because of certain over-optimistic people, who think they know what they are talking about, but in reality haven’t really got a clue about how the real world works or how reluctant so called wealthy on paper, but in reality cash poor / bordering on at risk borrowing to asset (Gearing) wise, farmers are at working together.
Neither those coming up with the ELMs plans or those of us expected to sign a Contract understand or want to understand it and most of it should be put to death asap!
It is so bad and unbelievable that if it were maybe into a soap opera on TV, everybody would think it was a comedy show, rather than the tragedy it really is.
I wish I was rich enough to be a Dragon, as on Dragons Den, to be able to say “I’m out!” on the whole subject of ELMs, some of which disgusts me that much!
Thank you @delilah for highlighting it.
What still sticks in my craw the most is that in its title, it doesn’t mention the prime objective of all farming, being food production!
It’s all very well trying to promote a more environmentally friendly way of producing food, but to completely avoid the word “food” in its title, is beyond belief!
And as farmers’, everything we do to produce any food, involves capturing sunlight, water and CO2 to sequester as much Carbon as we can, as fast as we can!
Not in 25 years time, which is how long any tree takes, before in becomes Carbon neutral.
As for inventing a scheme that will support the biggest farmers/land owners is a joke. Bitter experience has shown that trying to get farmers to join together doesn’t work well and often end in tears. The idea of any of them doing so or environmental reasons for LR and LNR, is doomed to failure!
It’ll never work. It’s as simple as that!
Not to mention what the the Public will think when this so called “Public good” fiasco is exposed.
How much of our BPS reductions money is going to be wasted before before a PAC scraps most of ELMs and just concentrates on the SFI side of it, without taking chunks of land out of food production?
It’s just far too complicated and will end up exactly how that new computerised SPS system did a few years ago, when they had to revert back to the paper system at the very last minute.
The whole idea is flawed because of certain over-optimistic people, who think they know what they are talking about, but in reality haven’t really got a clue about how the real world works or how reluctant so called wealthy on paper, but in reality cash poor / bordering on at risk borrowing to asset (Gearing) wise, farmers are at working together.
Neither those coming up with the ELMs plans or those of us expected to sign a Contract understand or want to understand it and most of it should be put to death asap!
It is so bad and unbelievable that if it were maybe into a soap opera on TV, everybody would think it was a comedy show, rather than the tragedy it really is.
I wish I was rich enough to be a Dragon, as on Dragons Den, to be able to say “I’m out!” on the whole subject of ELMs, some of which disgusts me that much!
Last edited:
Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Hi, yes the BBC Environment run with this That fella Roger Harrobin. But also remember the BBC do have a 5.45 am Farming Programme specific to the industry - the only industry as far as I am aware that has its own slot five days a week on national state radio!? And thus it will run with this issue. Only reason I said what I did is that I mix in the main with folk locally who have nothing to do with Agriculture, well apart from walking their dogs across fields and getting off the road for big tractors! The all know I am connected to Agriculture. And not one has asked me about the proposed changes to farm subsidies! Hey ho.
The final 2 sentences of the final paragraph, is for me an appalling comment to hear, and even more so when stated by an impartial MP...
Pity it will not see light beyond the Telegraph!
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
I suspect, like most of us, I am not awake at 5.45 am five days a week. There’s not much I can do this time of the year, more than an hour before daylight and even in the summer, there is too much dew to do any work meaning I’ll probably be working late in the evenings before the dew returns.
When I used to milk cows, they vastly preferred music on the parlour radio to radio 4 to let their milk down.
And even though I might have been awake, the very last thing I wanted to listen too, was the mostly crap that the BBC spout about our industry, even on a program allegedly dedicated to it!
Especially by somebody who has little if any actual experience in Agriculture:
Roger Harrabin - Wikipedia
Last edited:
Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
I suspect, like most of us, I am not awake at 5.45 am five days a week. There’s not much I can do this time of the year, more than an hour before daylight and even in the summer, there is too much dew to do any work meaning I’ll probably be working late in the evenings before the dew return.
When I used to milk cows, they vastly preferred music on the parlour radio to radio 4 to let their milk down.
And even though I might have been awake, the very last thing I wanted to listen too, was the mostly crap that the BBC spout about our industry, even on a program allegedly dedicated to it!
Especially by somebody who has little if any actual experience in Agriculture:
Roger Harrabin - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I sometimes pick it up on iplayer catch up - usually if during the day an item has been flagged up during the main news programmes. Otherwise it is Chris Hawkins and Radio 6 at that time of the day for me! Only reason I am on TFF tonight is to take a break from yet more 'useless' box ticking. Preparing a LEAF Bisodiversity Plan. Trawled internet and found a template. Now copying oodles of bumf into it ready to be uploaded onto a portal where someone will take a five second glance and, hopefully, say yes (as per the Del Monte advert) and then the client farms spuds can find there way into M&S. What a bizarre world we live in. Best wishes, H.
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
Bring back Channel 4’s “The Big Breakfast” with Gabby Roslin is what I say!
Anything rather than the daily misery every other TV breakfast show spouts in between the latest weather forecasts I am waiting for!
My radio (4) comes on at 3 minutes to the hour and off again as soon the weather forecast is over and I’m out of bed!
Hindsight
Member
- Location
- Lincolnshire
Don't do TV much full stop, and certainly not Breakfast TV, must be thirty years since I watched even a few minutes if Breakfast TV. At least with radio can do something else same time! Radio 6 is ace.
- Location
- Devon
Especially if we can possibly make this actually happen;
"The UK will go further than ever before to clamp down on illegal deforestation and protect rainforests, the government has confirmed today, thanks to world-leading new laws being introduced through the landmark Environment Bill (11 November 2020)
Combined, the package of measures will ensure that greater resilience, traceability and sustainability are built into the UK’s supply chains by working in partnership with other countries and supporting farmers to transition to more sustainable food and land use systems.
One of the leading new measures is the introduction of a new law in the Environment Bill which will require greater due diligence from businesses, and make it illegal for UK businesses to use key commodities if they have not been produced in line with local laws protecting forests and other natural ecosystems."
But what I have highlighted makes it all meaningless.
Many countries don't have the laws in place to protect the environment or wilfully ignore them if they do.
Do they even have a tick box for 'We follow all the local laws protecting forests and other natural ecosystems.
We all need to follow the same rules. Are their NVZ's in Argentina?
but when you are competing with the rest of the world which does , with a back door open through Ireland into country.
This isn’t really a fair argument. Most places have nowhere near the yield potential and climate we have.
yes you may be competing with an Australian farmer who is subsidised. But his average yield 2t/ha if it actually rains.
we should be using our advanatages, which are numerous rather than getting too hung up on how much sub other countries get.
Whilst at the same time Drax power station burns 800,000 trees a day mostly imported from the US supported by a £800 million yearly subsidy from the government which is classed as environmentally beneficial, talk about about total hypocrites!!