'Public Money for Public Goods'

[Johnnyboxer]

So, we heard about in the Defra Minister's speech this week at the OFC and the Chancellor mentioned it in his statement on 30/12/2019 with regard to the agricultural industry.

What do these 'words' exactly mean

What will the UK agricultural sector be like in 2025, anybody who can give me a 'vision', in their opinion

I, for one would be interested to know

 

[bluebell]

there was a world you know before we joined the EU, its up to the government to put our people first, wherer its farmers, steel workers etc, etc etc, far to much money is wasted on naive otherseas aid to countries that seem to me far from gratfull, Put Great Britian first for once, or is that to simple?

 

[B'o'B]

A couple of quotes from https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264837718308603

The main public good highlighted in the Government’s farming consultation document is environmental improvement (Defra, 2018a). Environmentally related public benefits which can be produced by farming include, but are not limited to:

•Improved soil health

•Water quality improvement

•Water quantity regulation

•Flood risk reduction

•Climate change mitigation through the reduction and storage of greenhouse gas emissions

•Other air quality improvements such as reducing ammonia emissions

•Conservation and enhancement of biodiversity

•The provision of amenity views

•Recreational access

•Improvements to physical and mental health

•Supporting provision of the above environmental public goods through diversification into other production with high public good characteristics (e.g. woodland) and/or compensation for environmental damage elsewhere in the economy (e.g. delivering net environmental gains from housing developments).



Agriculture is a private enterprise and food is sold in markets, directly to consumers, and is therefore by definition (and according to official government guidance) a private, rather than a public, good (H.M. Treasury, 2018)4. Public subsidy of private production is extremely unusual (especially at the rates indicated previously) and, as noted above, runs the risk of consumers paying twice, once as purchasers of food and again as taxpayers. Access to food is in the public interest and preventing food poverty through social security payments or other actions is an extremely worthy cause. However, food producers typically aim to sell to the highest bidder, not the most socially deserving consumer.

 

[Clive]

So, we heard about in the Defra Minister's speech this week at the OFC and the Chancellor mentioned it in his statement on 30/12/2019 with regard to the agricultural industry.

What do these 'words' exactly mean

What will the UK agricultural sector be like in 2025, anybody who can give me a 'vision', in their opinion

I, for one would be interested to know

Sub for production is going and ELM's will replace them that much is certain so the money will be for public goods that we can provide. IIRC at OFC they said the list currently was over 900 options under test/consideration but that would be a much smaller list when actual schemes were implemented. I also got the impression that these schemes would be more flexible and self-service than stuff like CSS has been in the past and administered by tech rather than inspectors. I'm pretty certain that it will be very financially unattractive to farm with significant cultivation under ELMS unless you are a high-value veg grower etc

Other than that I can see there being tax on "bad" food like the existing sugar tax and a significant overall rise in the cost of good food (paid for by the bad food tax)


I don't think we are going to see a ban on imports produced at lower than UK standard but I can see them taxing such goods as "bad food"


But only guessing really

 

[bluebell]

agriculture is a private enterprise, thats true, but food production for any country is a cornerstone of a country, an other is being able to defend itself? the service sector can come and go with the ups and downs of the economy but certain industries if not protected by what ever once gone lost for ever and i put steel making in that , steel making should be saved supported whatever you call it for the greater good of the country, thats my view anyway,

 

[Johnnyboxer]

there was a world you know before we joined the EU, its up to the government to put our people first, wherer its farmers, steel workers etc, etc etc, far to much money is wasted on naive otherseas aid to countries that seem to me far from gratfull, Put Great Britian first for once, or is that to simple?

A world before the EU, was 40 years ago and the market/world/population/warfare/climate has moved on greatly from the 1970's

It's a complex dynamic, but my question is more about the 'hoops' HM Govt will set for the rural community

 

[Johnnyboxer]

Sub for production is going and ELM's will replace them that much is certain so the money will be for public goods that we can provide. IIRC at OFC they said the list currently was over 900 options under test/consideration but that would be a much smaller list when actual schemes were implemented. I also got the impression that these schemes would be more flexible and self-service than stuff like CSS has been in the past and administered by tech rather than inspectors. I'm pretty certain that it will be very financially unattractive to farm with significant cultivation under ELMS unless you are a high-value veg grower etc

Other than that I can see there being tax on "bad" food like the existing sugar tax and a significant overall rise in the cost of good food (paid for by the bad food tax)


I don't think we are going to see a ban on imports produced at lower than UK standard but I can see them taxing such goods as "bad food"


But only guessing really

Yes, I understand some of that, but what will farming look like it 2025, with ELM?

Words are words, it's the likely detail that many seem not to know about it actually means

Public Money for Public Goods is a slogan................a bit like Get Brexit Done..............

But what does it really mean

 

[Johnnyboxer]

agriculture is a private enterprise, thats true, but food production for any country is a cornerstone of a country, an other is being able to defend itself? the service sector can come and go with the ups and downs of the economy but certain industries if not protected by what ever once gone lost for ever and i put steel making in that , steel making should be saved supported whatever you call it for the greater good of the country, thats my view anyway,

Steel making was sold off cheaply to the highest bidder, after being brought to its knees

Not a good analogy

 

[bluebell]

on price food can be bought, had from importing it? save the public purse around 3 billion in support ? then we can get on and build build build,because thats the best way to make money from agricultural land?

 

[bluebell]

for my sins, i keep suckler cows and from when i started in the late 1970s, its got harder and harder, what with the rules regulations , the shutting of local markets, but once i stop thats the end, building for me?

 

[bluebell]

You say what hoops the government will set to make agriculture jump threw, all i see around where i live is the black economy booming ? no rules or regs to follow ? people living in sheds or worse, cash in hand ? the more rules and regs the government brings in the more it drives the black economy ?

 

[teslacoils]

It means we are going to take your sub, which historically provided the public good of food. We don't need your food. We will import it. The we will find things that big business want, but do t want to pay for our if profit, or pass on to customers, and give you your sub back for doing their jobs IE carbon capture, flood amelioration, water turbidity reduction. We will then tag on compulsory public access in as many areas we can. We will then implement a new streamlined it system. We will not pay you on time. We will inspect constantly so you live in fear. We offer small carrots. We will hit you with a huge hurty stick.

Simple enough?

Don't fall for it. They will give you tuppence for capturing carbon that business would have to shell out much, much more for.

 

[Clive]

Yes, I understand some of that, but what will farming look like it 2025, with ELM?

Words are words, it's the likely detail that many seem not to know about it actually means

Public Money for Public Goods is a slogan................a bit like Get Brexit Done..............

But what does it really mean

I think it's pretty clear - you will no longer be paid to produce food but will be paid for things that benefit the environment/public

that defined list of thing is currently under discussion/review and testing but we can likely guess many of the areas that will be included

 

[Clive]

It means we are going to take your sub, which historically provided the public good of food. We don't need your food. We will import it. The we will find things that big business want, but do t want to pay for our if profit, or pass on to customers, and give you your sub back for doing their jobs IE carbon capture, flood amelioration, water turbidity reduction. We will then tag on compulsory public access in as many areas we can. We will then implement a new streamlined it system. We will not pay you on time. We will inspect constantly so you live in fear. We offer small carrots. We will hit you with a huge hurty stick.

Simple enough?

Don't fall for it. They will give you tuppence for capturing carbon that business would have to shell out much, much more for.

food never was a public good - it's a product that we have been pretty rubbish at making money out of

 

[ajd132]

Don’t kid yourself that you have been paid for the noble profession of growing food for the masses. The cap is a weird payment for owning land. From what I can gather many of the hill farmers could stay in bed all day and not bother with the sheep!

 

[Johnnyboxer]

I think it's pretty clear - you will no longer be paid to produce food but will be paid for things that benefit the environment/public

I get that bit, but how will the 1000's of UK farmers (sat here on 10/1/2020) fare?

How will it work, will we be better off in the longterm?

 

[bluebell]

many like my uncle, have taken the EU payments, and found some willing fool to rent the land on a yearly rent, makes more money than when he farmed it without all the work and worry ?

 

[B'o'B]

Don’t kid yourself that you have been paid for the noble profession of growing food for the masses. The cap is a weird payment for owning land. From what I can gather many of the hill farmers could stay in bed all day and not bother with the sheep!

Let’s be honest you and I probably could as well and not bother growing crops on owned land, although we might have to stir ourselves once or twice a year to run a topper over the land.

 

[Clive]

I get that bit, but how will the 1000's of UK farmers (sat here on 10/1/2020) fare?

How will it work, will we be better off in the longterm?

I think it will work fine - there is clearly more demand right now for the public goods than there is the food

Like any business we should supply what customers want

 

[B'o'B]

I get that bit, but how will the 1000's of UK farmers (sat here on 10/1/2020) fare?

How will it work, will we be better off in the longterm?

Depends how each of them cope with getting there heads around our new role.
We may get more of an idea when the Ag Bill returns to parliament, but really we need to know the details of any scheme along with the outcome of trade negotiations to get any real idea how we all end up.