Question: What's stopping more farmers practicing silvoarable/agroforestry?

I am also a tree planter (another 200m of hedge/trees going in this winter), and I agree with you wholeheartedly, in fact woodland planted on grassland sequests less carbon than the grassland would, and if they are planted on peat, that is even worse. Ultimately the way to stop GHG emissions, is to buy less, fly less, consume less, and have less children. Oh and eat more meat too.

I think at the moment agroforestry is a bit trendy for arable farmers in the east with no hedges etc.
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
I have no idea how people think planting trees are going to even begin to ameliorate GHG emissions. I think the whole thing is not naive but actually duplicitous.

Trees are great to plant for their own sake but to pretend they will ameliorate GHG emissions is actually evil it is so misinformed. Really annoys me and I'm a tree planter anyway
I keep banging on about it... an area the size of the UK agricultural area is deforested every 12-18 months. Global problems require global solutions or we are just pissing in a lake.
 

Goweresque

Member
Location
North Wilts
an area the size of the UK agricultural area is deforested every 12-18 months

Is this actually true? Or rather it may be true that amount of forest is cut down in various locations, but by how much are other previously arid areas becoming covered with vegetation? What is the net position? Everything I have read on the subject suggests that the planet is greening rather rapidly as a result of all that lovely extra plant food that is in the atmosphere.

 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
Is this actually true? Or rather it may be true that amount of forest is cut down in various locations, but by how much are other previously arid areas becoming covered with vegetation? What is the net position? Everything I have read on the subject suggests that the planet is greening rather rapidly as a result of all that lovely extra plant food that is in the atmosphere.

well that is an interesting counter position to this... :scratchhead:

1606775594218.png
 

farmerm

Member
Location
Shropshire
Incidentally if anyone wants trees it seems you can get them for free....

Shropshire Council Community Tree Scheme 2020/21 | Shropshire Council

I Dig Trees - Ready. Steady. Grow. (ovoenergy.com)

Presumable these schemes are paid for from organisations that can then claim having planted a "million trees" to offset their carbon footprint and whilst getting some else to provide the land an labour... but still, some hedging gapping up and some specimen trees for free, what's not to like those 2 schemes alone offer over a 1000 trees per applicant!
 

N.Yorks.

Member
Could it be anything to do with the fact that real (ie inflation adjusted) prices of just about every farm output are at historic lows?

Yes, it's been a race to the bottom!! More for less and that's what everyone has been trying to do...... pointless. Maybe not pointless for those selling 'bigger this' and 'more efficient that'. It's a sweeping statement and isn't applicable in all cases I know, but there's a hell of a lot of truth in that.

When the human population doesn't have to struggle to exist and has plenty of food then it just keeps growing, then hey presto we're where we are now with all the problems of a crowded living space eg. pandemic to name but one problem. Today we're at 7 billion and 200 yrs ago we were 1 billion!!

It's nuts to say come on lets produce ever more food to feed xx billion in 2050 and let's do it as cheaply as possible! If you can keep the supply of a good (eg. food) fairly steady and if the demand rises then the price goes up.... which is what we want, better prices and quite possibly less population. Yes this is an oversimplified statement but the principle is true enough, isn't it?

Screenshot 2020-12-01 at 08.51.22.png
 
Last edited:

egbert

Member
Livestock Farmer
Ok, I'm hearing lots of 'Horse sh1t', 'tw*t', 'bunny huggers' on top of a sh1t load of can't, can't, can't..... all very negative.

Being serious now, I agree that AF won't be suitable in a number of circumstances however your comment "It makes me very very angry that this brand of loved up 'I know better than the whole farming industry' baloney isn't called out from the top, and that there are those who're believing it."

So if the whole farming industry has got it right and knows what they are doing why is the industry still in the financial situation it is? See farm income figures below, figures ringed are income from the core agricultural business. An industry you infer that knows what it's doing. Doesn't it demonstrate in some circumstances there is a lot that can be done better.

Caveat: those figures are average and some farm businesses are doing well and are sustainable in many senses (financially/environmentally etc), so it's not all gloom, but clearly there are things that can be done that aren't being done now.

Obviously the price that people pay for food is an issue but what are your solutions for the future industry?

View attachment 924001View attachment 924001

OK

you deserve a more careful reply.

It's a nice image, and the video waxes lyrical on it.
But reality is different.
If we're to retain any semblance of viability/vitality - and the interaction twixt subs and economic farming are done to death here and elsewhere- working farmers need to produce something marketable, at a price the consumer will/can pay.
And the logistics of producing small quantities of mixed fruit/nuts as shown are simply light years from how I understand commercial producers do it.
And even then, if there's a glitch in the supply of eastern European labour to pick it, or the weather goes against you, or Tesco decides there's a R in the month....half of it will end up on the floor, rotting.
That's the reality.

And there's 10's of millions of UK consumers who we'd NEVER reach without going through supermarkets.

Intercropping with arable/tillage etc.... as said by exponents elsewhere above.... ANYTHING which snags machinery/drops limbs into the way/ effs up efficient crop management is dead in the water. End of.

And as I've indicated, agroforestry with livestock ....unless they're very fat and lazy indeed, the beasts will simply skin the trees.
So the fencing costs are eyewateringly expensive.

Growing widely spaced trees like this for timber production requires VERY favourable conditions...otherwise you'd just have misshapen bushes which aren't worth sh1t.
On good/sheltered ground, just the pruning costs limit the crop to a very finite and highly specialised market. It is contrary to the basic fundaments of silviculture.

All of the land for miles around me falls in the other class.............you need a plantation depth of 20-30 meters to grow timber of much quality at the absolute minimum.
(AND fruit doesn't set or ripen here, and we carefully selectively breed sheep which will make it their business to stand on each others backs to browse trees...... these things haven't happened and evolved for no reason. the system has grown because it works)



The concept can and does work in poor countries, and a cheap manual labour/subsistence system. That ain't us though.

I'm not trying to be negative. far from it.
Indeed, I've run the maths on growing standards in hedgerows for profit, I've carefully lobbied for silviculture to be a required part of any agri-college course...without luck.
I have planted new woodlands on 2nd rate ground, I understand I'm at the cutting edge of trying new exotic commercial tree species in UK farm woodland environs, I run a specialist hardwood sawmill. I correspond with experts-inc AF- all over the globe - who kindly suffer my ignorance.
And I publish 50,000 words a year on related subjects.
I'll pull up those on my own side who make claims that can't be substantiated.

What I can't abide is the current reframing of UK farm support/direction being based on woolly horsesh1t.
We're inundated with wannabes and do-gooders, clinging to the least fantastic bit of nonsense, fondly imagining that saying nice things and thinking nice thoughts will stop the world going down the toilet from our collective selfish short-sighted actions.
I won't be made a scapegoat, or allow my culture to be beaten down by conscience-salving-urban-fantasy.
And sadly, the embracing of AF looks pretty much like exactly more of that.

Nuff?
 
I think the local organic guy is starting to do it. I thought it looked interesting but just looks like complicated faff with little evidence behind it

Its nice landscape art
OK

you deserve a more careful reply.

It's a nice image, and the video waxes lyrical on it.
But reality is different.
If we're to retain any semblance of viability/vitality - and the interaction twixt subs and economic farming are done to death here and elsewhere- working farmers need to produce something marketable, at a price the consumer will/can pay.
And the logistics of producing small quantities of mixed fruit/nuts as shown are simply light years from how I understand commercial producers do it.
And even then, if there's a glitch in the supply of eastern European labour to pick it, or the weather goes against you, or Tesco decides there's a R in the month....half of it will end up on the floor, rotting.
That's the reality.

And there's 10's of millions of UK consumers who we'd NEVER reach without going through supermarkets.

Intercropping with arable/tillage etc.... as said by exponents elsewhere above.... ANYTHING which snags machinery/drops limbs into the way/ effs up efficient crop management is dead in the water. End of.

And as I've indicated, agroforestry with livestock ....unless they're very fat and lazy indeed, the beasts will simply skin the trees.
So the fencing costs are eyewateringly expensive.

Growing widely spaced trees like this for timber production requires VERY favourable conditions...otherwise you'd just have misshapen bushes which aren't worth sh1t.
On good/sheltered ground, just the pruning costs limit the crop to a very finite and highly specialised market. It is contrary to the basic fundaments of silviculture.

All of the land for miles around me falls in the other class.............you need a plantation depth of 20-30 meters to grow timber of much quality at the absolute minimum.
(AND fruit doesn't set or ripen here, and we carefully selectively breed sheep which will make it their business to stand on each others backs to browse trees...... these things haven't happened and evolved for no reason. the system has grown because it works)



The concept can and does work in poor countries, and a cheap manual labour/subsistence system. That ain't us though.

I'm not trying to be negative. far from it.
Indeed, I've run the maths on growing standards in hedgerows for profit, I've carefully lobbied for silviculture to be a required part of any agri-college course...without luck.
I have planted new woodlands on 2nd rate ground, I understand I'm at the cutting edge of trying new exotic commercial tree species in UK farm woodland environs, I run a specialist hardwood sawmill. I correspond with experts-inc AF- all over the globe - who kindly suffer my ignorance.
And I publish 50,000 words a year on related subjects.
I'll pull up those on my own side who make claims that can't be substantiated.

What I can't abide is the current reframing of UK farm support/direction being based on woolly horsesh1t.
We're inundated with wannabes and do-gooders, clinging to the least fantastic bit of nonsense, fondly imagining that saying nice things and thinking nice thoughts will stop the world going down the toilet from our collective selfish short-sighted actions.
I won't be made a scapegoat, or allow my culture to be beaten down by conscience-salving-urban-fantasy.
And sadly, the embracing of AF looks pretty much like exactly more of that.

Nuff?

Interesting post. I think I agree with you
 

N.Yorks.

Member
OK

you deserve a more careful reply.

It's a nice image, and the video waxes lyrical on it.
But reality is different.
If we're to retain any semblance of viability/vitality - and the interaction twixt subs and economic farming are done to death here and elsewhere- working farmers need to produce something marketable, at a price the consumer will/can pay.
And the logistics of producing small quantities of mixed fruit/nuts as shown are simply light years from how I understand commercial producers do it.
And even then, if there's a glitch in the supply of eastern European labour to pick it, or the weather goes against you, or Tesco decides there's a R in the month....half of it will end up on the floor, rotting.
That's the reality.

And there's 10's of millions of UK consumers who we'd NEVER reach without going through supermarkets.

Intercropping with arable/tillage etc.... as said by exponents elsewhere above.... ANYTHING which snags machinery/drops limbs into the way/ effs up efficient crop management is dead in the water. End of.

And as I've indicated, agroforestry with livestock ....unless they're very fat and lazy indeed, the beasts will simply skin the trees.
So the fencing costs are eyewateringly expensive.

Growing widely spaced trees like this for timber production requires VERY favourable conditions...otherwise you'd just have misshapen bushes which aren't worth sh1t.
On good/sheltered ground, just the pruning costs limit the crop to a very finite and highly specialised market. It is contrary to the basic fundaments of silviculture.

All of the land for miles around me falls in the other class.............you need a plantation depth of 20-30 meters to grow timber of much quality at the absolute minimum.
(AND fruit doesn't set or ripen here, and we carefully selectively breed sheep which will make it their business to stand on each others backs to browse trees...... these things haven't happened and evolved for no reason. the system has grown because it works)



The concept can and does work in poor countries, and a cheap manual labour/subsistence system. That ain't us though.

I'm not trying to be negative. far from it.
Indeed, I've run the maths on growing standards in hedgerows for profit, I've carefully lobbied for silviculture to be a required part of any agri-college course...without luck.
I have planted new woodlands on 2nd rate ground, I understand I'm at the cutting edge of trying new exotic commercial tree species in UK farm woodland environs, I run a specialist hardwood sawmill. I correspond with experts-inc AF- all over the globe - who kindly suffer my ignorance.
And I publish 50,000 words a year on related subjects.
I'll pull up those on my own side who make claims that can't be substantiated.

What I can't abide is the current reframing of UK farm support/direction being based on woolly horsesh1t.
We're inundated with wannabes and do-gooders, clinging to the least fantastic bit of nonsense, fondly imagining that saying nice things and thinking nice thoughts will stop the world going down the toilet from our collective selfish short-sighted actions.
I won't be made a scapegoat, or allow my culture to be beaten down by conscience-salving-urban-fantasy.
And sadly, the embracing of AF looks pretty much like exactly more of that.

Nuff?

I agree that AF has been described a number of ways and depending upon what someone actually means by AF determines whether or not it has any merit...... Just reading your post again I think perhaps the type of AF you have in your mind is quite different to that in mine!

As far as I'm concerned there are conditions where silvo-arable AF does have a place - it's practised more widely in european developed countries not just as subsistance systems you refer to.

No matter whatever either of us believe the future will favour whatever works! Simples.
 
Last edited:

Cowcorn

Member
Mixed Farmer
OK

you deserve a more careful reply.

It's a nice image, and the video waxes lyrical on it.
But reality is different.
If we're to retain any semblance of viability/vitality - and the interaction twixt subs and economic farming are done to death here and elsewhere- working farmers need to produce something marketable, at a price the consumer will/can pay.
And the logistics of producing small quantities of mixed fruit/nuts as shown are simply light years from how I understand commercial producers do it.
And even then, if there's a glitch in the supply of eastern European labour to pick it, or the weather goes against you, or Tesco decides there's a R in the month....half of it will end up on the floor, rotting.
That's the reality.

And there's 10's of millions of UK consumers who we'd NEVER reach without going through supermarkets.

Intercropping with arable/tillage etc.... as said by exponents elsewhere above.... ANYTHING which snags machinery/drops limbs into the way/ effs up efficient crop management is dead in the water. End of.

And as I've indicated, agroforestry with livestock ....unless they're very fat and lazy indeed, the beasts will simply skin the trees.
So the fencing costs are eyewateringly expensive.

Growing widely spaced trees like this for timber production requires VERY favourable conditions...otherwise you'd just have misshapen bushes which aren't worth sh1t.
On good/sheltered ground, just the pruning costs limit the crop to a very finite and highly specialised market. It is contrary to the basic fundaments of silviculture.

All of the land for miles around me falls in the other class.............you need a plantation depth of 20-30 meters to grow timber of much quality at the absolute minimum.
(AND fruit doesn't set or ripen here, and we carefully selectively breed sheep which will make it their business to stand on each others backs to browse trees...... these things haven't happened and evolved for no reason. the system has grown because it works)



The concept can and does work in poor countries, and a cheap manual labour/subsistence system. That ain't us though.

I'm not trying to be negative. far from it.
Indeed, I've run the maths on growing standards in hedgerows for profit, I've carefully lobbied for silviculture to be a required part of any agri-college course...without luck.
I have planted new woodlands on 2nd rate ground, I understand I'm at the cutting edge of trying new exotic commercial tree species in UK farm woodland environs, I run a specialist hardwood sawmill. I correspond with experts-inc AF- all over the globe - who kindly suffer my ignorance.
And I publish 50,000 words a year on related subjects.
I'll pull up those on my own side who make claims that can't be substantiated.

What I can't abide is the current reframing of UK farm support/direction being based on woolly horsesh1t.
We're inundated with wannabes and do-gooders, clinging to the least fantastic bit of nonsense, fondly imagining that saying nice things and thinking nice thoughts will stop the world going down the toilet from our collective selfish short-sighted actions.
I won't be made a scapegoat, or allow my culture to be beaten down by conscience-salving-urban-fantasy.
And sadly, the embracing of AF looks pretty much like exactly more of that.

Nuff?
Yep if anyone had any lingering doubts you have certainly banished them .
Really like the last bit the last thing the remaining countryside needs is the i know better urban elite shoving their poorly thought out schemes on the people who have farmed land for generations and are fully aware of their lands limitations and strengths . Any crop farmer who planted trees to cause uneven ripening would bitterly regret it once gly goes . Another victim of the know all pack ....
 

egbert

Member
Livestock Farmer
I agree that AF has been described a number of ways and depending upon what someone actually means by AF determines whether or not it has any merit...... Just reading your post again I think perhaps the type of AF you have in your mind is quite different to that in mine!

As far as I'm concerned there are conditions where silvo-arable AF does have a place - it's practised more widely in european developed countries not just as subsistance systems you refer to.

No matter whatever either of us believe the future will favour whatever works! Simples.
the immediate future is going to favour whatever Whitehall decide are 'public goods', regrettably
 

N.Yorks.

Member
Yep if anyone had any lingering doubts you have certainly banished them .
Really like the last bit the last thing the remaining countryside needs is the i know better urban elite shoving their poorly thought out schemes on the people who have farmed land for generations and are fully aware of their lands limitations and strengths . Any crop farmer who planted trees to cause uneven ripening would bitterly regret it once gly goes . Another victim of the know all pack ....


If you don't like what the politicians are doing make your views into a manifesto, go get votes and change the course of the ship!

OR alternatively do some research publish the findings in a transparent way so everyone can trust the method and importantly the results...... There's too much bluster and bull shite about these days.
 

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