Ram costs

[exmoorromney]

That’s what I meant, better sold at home. Mine have been great tups really, iv never seen either of them work, I even put a raddle on one last year and he never marked one, I reckon that why the keep there condition because they tup a ewe then rest not like my suffolks that tup the same ewe 20 time and burn out after a week.

Get better Suffolks

 

[Estate fencing.]

Get better Suffolks

I do have good Suffolk’s but the just work to hard on the same ewes imo. A bad Suffolk would be dead before he met the ewes.

 

[neilo]

I do have good Suffolk’s but the just work to hard on the same ewes imo. A bad Suffolk would be dead before he met the ewes.

As I single sire mate my pedigree ewes, and those with maternal rams, I see a lot of difference in that trait between individuals, rather than between breeds.
Some make one mark and move on, others paint ewes like Picasso.

There may well be other issues going on if they sha themselves thin in a week. Ram rearing system perhaps?

 

[muleman]

It’s always the dear ones who’ve paid best here.

Yes,same here, better with the money into one top quality than 4 or 5 average ones.

 

[Ysgythan]

As I single sire mate my pedigree ewes, and those with maternal rams, I see a lot of difference in that trait between individuals, rather than between breeds.
Some make one mark and move on, others paint ewes like Picasso.

There may well be other issues going on if they sha themselves thin in a week. Ram rearing system perhaps?

Experience is important as well, as in the first experience of mating a tup has. Bringing old experienced tups that have been thrown out with unsponged ewes in their formative seasons works very well on that system. Breaking ram lambs into it when they have no other experience, not so much.

 

[M-J-G]

I've never been a big spender on bulls or rams.
Most I've paid for a ram is £600 for a Hampshire shearling, followed by £400 for a Roussin lamb.
I bought an aged Lleyn from a friend this year for £150 and I have lleyn ram lambs to keep something out of for the future.
Otherwise I breed our own Hampshire rams from a few ewes that we have.
I don't really trust breeders, so I prefer to buy as little as possible.

I've had recorded rams, bought in rams, feed rams and home bred grass only rams and I see little difference in how long they last and how their lambs do, so I'll just keep going for the cheapest option as much as possible which is leaving the balls on a few of my own and drawing them out of the fat lambs and culling anything that annoys me.

 

[NZDan]

would you want a production female bred from the bottom half of someone else’s flock?

But in almost all cases when those cross breds are bred the decision on which ewes are the 'bottom half' of the flock is just subjective and highly inaccurate when it comes to production traits, the actual difference in performance between mules bred from the so called top half and so called bottom half will 3/5s of F all.

 

[andybk]

But in almost all cases when those cross breds are bred the decision on which ewes are the 'bottom half' of the flock is just subjective and highly inaccurate when it comes to production traits, the actual difference in performance between mules bred from the so called top half and so called bottom half will 3/5s of F all.

absolutely , assuming a decent flock the background genetics will be very similar , better an average sheep from a good flock than a good one from a poor flock , thats why ram sales are a lottery , you have no idea the background , did breeder have to kill a high % of siblings or not to get that one ? for sure whatever hes like it will only breed an average of his and your flock .

 

[M-J-G]

How very dare you! It would be a pee poor Charollais that resembled a Roussin, let alone if it had similar performance!

I could get you one, might help you char lambs get to weight a bit quicker than they currently are

 

[neilo]

I could get you one, might help you char lambs get to weight a bit quicker than they currently are

He’d have to be an improvement over the Roussin lambs I’ve had over the scales this afternoon, and seem to have stalled at 40-41kg.

With your lambs hitting 50kg before you can blink, maybe I should just send my lambs up to your place?

 

[M-J-G]

He’d have to be an improvement over the Roussin lambs I’ve had over the scales this afternoon, and seem to have stalled at 40-41kg.

With your lambs hitting 50kg before you can blink, maybe I should just send my lambs up to your place?

I've got some I'm trying to keep bare to store into the new year, I could swap them with you.

Your sheep would die of the cold up here

 

[Ysgythan]

absolutely , assuming a decent flock the background genetics will be very similar , better an average sheep from a good flock than a good one from a poor flock , thats why ram sales are a lottery , you have no idea the background , did breeder have to kill a high % of siblings or not to get that one ? for sure whatever hes like it will only breed an average of his and your flock .

Yeah but all you have to do is ask…

 

[Ysgythan]

As I’ve said a few times on here pedigree breeders tend to get a bum rap, but they are the ones going around the country in June doing their research. You’ve got to do it whilst the lambs are on their dams.

 

[SteveHants]

Three way Heterosis is practically standard here and in NZ, just they use crossbred tups and we use crossbred ewes.

Yes, but my point was more about where each system sits on the additional benefits of selection:

I suspect the NZ system sits more towards "selection plus crossbreeding" and the current system of producing mules sits closer to "crossbreeding alone" insomuch as whilst the hill element may be selected for some commercial traits, the BFL element is to a much lesser extent.

From a management point of view, selection in your females where inputs are less homogenous (unlike the pig industry that crosses sows, inputs are much the same in terms of feed), leads to better performance in females adapted to the microclimate/traits you want in your system.

 

[Ysgythan]

Yes, but my point was more about where each system sits on the additional benefits of selection:


View attachment 993368

I suspect the NZ system sits more towards "selection plus crossbreeding" and the current system of producing mules sits closer to "crossbreeding alone" insomuch as whilst the hill element may be selected for some commercial traits, the BFL element is to a much lesser extent.

From a management point of view, selection in your females where inputs are less homogenous (unlike the pig industry that crosses sows, inputs are much the same in terms of feed), leads to better performance in females adapted to the microclimate/traits you want in your system.

Really? The BFL is what gives prolificacy. It’s only got there with selection. It’s also so inbred that it gives a big boost in HV, especially when the hill ewe is also massively inbred.

People are quick to scoff at traditional stockmanship, especially on here, but visual assessment and handling, even yes down to colourings and ears, can give you a lot of clues as to the likely performance of a Mule, or more accurately perhaps the suitability to your system. But it doesn’t come easy and certainly doesn’t come out of a book.

 

[M-J-G]

He’d have to be an improvement over the Roussin lambs I’ve had over the scales this afternoon, and seem to have stalled at 40-41kg.

With your lambs hitting 50kg before you can blink, maybe I should just send my lambs up to your place?

A few Roussin gimmers with 7-8 week old Lleyn lambs
So far very pleased with them, medium sized, good mothers and seem to be milking well off forage only for the past 6 weeks.
One of the twins in the bottom picture was 28kg yesterday

 

[Keithy1394]

Just to kick this thread of again what does everyone think tups are going to be this year? And do people thibk they are going to have to spend more to get there usual stamp of tup ?

 

[Nithsdale]

From the very limited sales so far.


No.

 

[neilo]

I wish.

 

[Anymulewilldo]

Just to kick this thread of again what does everyone think tups are going to be this year? And do people thibk they are going to have to spend more to get there usual stamp of tup ?

Crossbreds so far, yes.

pure texels, no