Raven Cull

[Fallowfield]

Not at present but Im sure if you had your way there would be, although there have for many years been ravens not far from here and they are regularly seen in neighbouring counties. If you reread my posts I have never claimed to suffer from raven predation, I can simply grasp the concept that it can/is happening elsewhere, and with many years experience in - I know you'll struggle with this - agriculture and conservation I do have some relevant experience to call on.
There, question answered your turn

OK. So you have no experience of ravens, never mind of ravens predating livestock.

 

[Gulli]

'Groupthink is a phenomenon when a group of people get together and start to think collectively with one mind. The group is more concerned with maintaining unity than with objectively evaluating their situation, alternatives and options.'

You must be new here if you think that phenomenon takes place on this forum!
The only thing I've known a collective agreement on is which is the best calving Jack to buy and I've been a member since the forum started

 

[Ptarmigan]

... and with many years experience in - I know you'll struggle with this - agriculture and conservation I do have some relevant experience to call on.

I too have "many years experience", but in Gamekeeping & Pest Control.

I am totally against giving the licence to the Keepers in this region because their track record, when it comes to Raptor Persecution, is absolutely dreadful, so this certainly is no way to 'reward' such behaviour. In my view it will, although not actually condone their criminality, do nothing to discourage it & sends out all the wrong signals to keepers elsewhere.

Their claim that Ravens are a 'major cause' in the decline of Waders has never been proved, so the granting of this licence is putting the cart before the horse & unlike the principal of our legal system, it is charging them as being guilty without a fair trial ... bit like the old Witch trials.

The Keepers claim that they are losing sleep over the decline in wader numbers is to me, no more than crocodile tears & hogwash, because although Lapwing & Curlew numbers are low,
the numbers of that other wader - Woodcock, are actually much lower, yet we don't hear the shooting fraternity crying about their low numbers, in fact quite the reverse, they actually refuse to stop shooting them, so forgive me if I take their worries about wader numbers with a - lorry load of salt.

They may have hoodwinked the SNH into issuing this licence, but myself & many others see right through this ploy for the smokescreen that it clearly is. Not content to illegally kill raptors in this region, their new strategy is to try & use the law to sanction their attack on the predators & it is a great pity that the SNH have failed to see through it.

I understand that some folks here have concerns with individual Raven attention when it comes to Lambs, but their are already mechanisms in place for them to acquire a licence to deal with rogue birds & in any case, neither in the eMail I received from the chair of the SNH, or in his public statement did I see any mention of Lambs, so clearly this licence was granted solely with Waders in mind.

Thankfully, with Alison Johnstone MSP (Scottish Greens, Lothian) lodging a Parliamentary motion of concern and Claudia Beamish MSP (Labour, South Scotland) lodging Parliamentary questions on the raven cull licence, I am confident this fiasco will be brought to an abrupt end & that can't happen soon enough for me. With huge numbers having already signed the petition against the granting of the Raven Cull Licence, the SNH will have a long road to travel to wash the egg from their face on this one!

 

[SLA]

Fallowfield what experience of livestock, predation and ravens do you have then?
as you have categorically dismissed all those who have provided evidence and are currently having to cope with raven predation

AGAIN what would you suggest is removing the eyes, tongues and intestines of these sheep and lambs?

Can someone please provide fallowfield with some percentages of their lambs that are predated - % of total lambs born that
1/ are found alive and have to be put down
2/are found alive and survive
3/ are found dead
4/ size of your flock

 

[Fallowfield]

Fallowfield what experience of livestock, predation and ravens do you have then?
as you have categorically dismissed all those who have provided evidence and are currently having to cope with raven predation

AGAIN what would you suggest is removing the eyes, tongues and intestines of these sheep and lambs?

Can someone please provide fallowfield with some percentages of their lambs that are predated - % of total lambs born that
1/ are found alive and have to be put down
2/are found alive and survive
3/ are found dead
4/ size of your flock

Experience of livestock (mostly cattle, some sheep) about 12 months farm work.

Experience of predation by ravens nil.

Experience of ravens, see them every day.

Experience of farmers, extensive.

Will ravens scavenge dead lambs? No doubt.

Will ravens attack sickly lambs? Almost certainly.

Will ravens attack healthy lambs with a healthy mother? Perhaps, but not nearly as often as claimed.

Will farmers exaggerate losses due to raven predation? Without a shadow of a doubt.

Would serious predation by ravens, if proved, justify a cull? Not necessarily. Taken in the round, with the overall adverse impact upland sheep farming has on the environment, it might be better to move sheep production to more suitable areas.

 

[SLA]

So you've 12 months experience of cattle and can see ravens??

Those describing their experiences with raven predation have repeatedly stated that the resident ravens didnt cause any problems for years until there was a sudden population increase -hardly rocket science that people are concluding there is a need to limit (NOT EXTERMINATE) the population.

Genius idea -ravens are predating sheep and lambs so let's get rid of the sheep from said area, I mean ravens are thick as so they'd just stay there and starve??
That's a much more logical idea than managing the population levels!

 

[SLA]

Your also assuming that ravens are only predating sheep in the uplands.

 

[brigadoon]

So now you concede that video is evidence of a Raven attack?

That ewe, if she hadn't became coupie, is a healthy animal. I'm confident a vet would agree, upon examination, that the ewe was a healthy specimen until attacked. When the owner next checks his stock he would find her get her back on her feet and she would carry on grazing... but not now.

Yes, I fully agree she was in a state where it made the attack easy for the Raven and the ewe was defenseless. But where adult sheep are attacked - this is the situation where it happens most. I don't think in 23 pages anyone has said other wise - but you have continually argued there's no proof of it.

Ravens are like any other animal - they go for the easy pickings. Just like foxes go for young lambs, because they are easy caught, Ravens take newborn lambs eyes and tongues or ewes go for which have gotten into trouble.

Nobody at any point has ever talked about wanting to wipe out Ravens, but in many areas there needs to be greater freedom to control numbers. That is all shepherds want - a fair, and meaningful, way to protect our livestock and business.

Absolutely correct - the fact of the matter is that ravens and any other corvid will attack any animal where they figure the odds are worthwhile.

Young lambs are certainly fair game and a coupie ewe will not last long - we had 20plus trying and very nearly succeeding to open up a downer cow a couple of years back - her head was still mobile so she managed to keep her eyes and we got to her just in time to save her from being opened up at the back end. I have to confess that videoing it was not the first thought that I had when we came over the hill.

I would not waste any time arguing with the persistent denial squad.

 

[Dry Rot]

The two nitwits have probably done more to promote the case for a raven cull -- or at least the issuing of a general licence -- than anything I have read on here or elsewhere! We know that more read TFF than admit to it, so hopefully it will do some good.

Back in the 1970's, ravens were not protected on the Scottish isles and there was a bounty on them (and black backed gulls). I don't think anyone made a fortune! Then I think they were included when all birds were protected under the Wildlife and Countryside Act but missed out on the general licence. There is definitely a case for a general licence to be issued for certain areas now. Nobody has got time to jump through bureaucratic hoops in the middle of lambing, nor to stop and take pretty pictures.

The problem is only going to get worse as the ones predating lambs teach their mates. It needs to be nipped in the bud now.

 

[Nithsdale]

Still in denial about Ravens, @Fallowfield ?


Also a good piece on Landward last night about the damage Sea Eagles are doing to lamb numbers at David Coulthard's farm at Appin

 

[andyt87]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/48639788

Nice to see the BBC teaching the kids that eagles don't predate lambs. The programme mentioned is the RSPB expanding the range.

"Not everyone is happy about the plan, as some farmers are worried that the giant birds may take lambs, but the programme's experts say there is so much food around, they don't believe it will be a problem."

This despite the report by Scottish Natural Heritage recognising the fact they predate healthy lambs as well as weaklings.
https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index...led-eagles-predation-of-healthy-sheep.289224/

 

[Man_in_black]

You must be new here if you think that phenomenon takes place on this forum!
The only thing I've known a collective agreement on is which is the best calving Jack to buy and I've been a member since the forum started

Hahaha I remember that thread, I agreed!