'Real' breeders reject EBVs

[Gulli]

still think faults first end of the day if a farmer is picking ewe lambs he dose not have all the records so say poor foot shape he may cull on that or black spots etc poor shape wooly heads inverted eyelids lambing probs so if some one goes it's got great numbers and goes a bit eazer on faults

there have been some huge gains in useing EBV's but also some train wrecks with some studs haveing stud blindness or not culling on basic things

see your point, but would the same thing not apply the other way round? as in its looks great so go a bit easier on numbers?
so long as you are strict enough i guess it doesn't matter which way round you go as you ought to end up with the same rams anyway

 

[JD-Kid]

see your point, but would the same thing not apply the other way round? as in its looks great so go a bit easier on numbers?
so long as you are strict enough i guess it doesn't matter which way round you go as you ought to end up with the same rams anyway

it's intresting i went though a heap of rams here just had basic info on them and just ranked them on the info i had 1 for best and down hill from there then added up the total they all come out about the same in total BUT if i ID'ed areas i needed to target say growth then some would have ranked higher

like any thing cars tractors etc over all some can be the same with + and - in diffrent areas

here is a good question on the ebv's what is "0" and how is that worked out with things like SIL etc is "0" for that flock or the breed

yes could go both ways alot of faults should be taken out during it's growing time any foot probs fly strike etc etc ie mangerment probs then on paper work depending on what there buyers are targeting so it maybe a case of keeping some with lower repoduction but good growth as some may not need high % others may need other traits

 

[Global ovine]

here is a good question on the ebv's what is "0" and how is that worked out with things like SIL etc is "0" for that flock or the breed

Zero is average of the foundation year, or in NZ 1995 if the flock was recorded prior to that. It represents the value of the trait in that flock in eBV (units of measurement) or sub index (eBV times monetory value in profit of that trait). If the flock is referenced with others for a separate analysis then zero is the average of that group. Therefore the difference from zero tells the reader if the animal in question has more or less of what is measured in that trait. If you purchase a ram with zero trait eBV or index, it means it is not improved for that trait since 1995 or the foundation year.

Many NZ breeders work together for mutual improvement, a few of these groups represent many breeds.
It is mandatory for NZ Charollais breeders to record on SIL and participate in across flock referencing. Therefore all breeders are compelled to use the across flock figures as they have a common zero. Whereas breeders in other breeds may use which ever analysis suits them. If a breeder is dragging the chain in genetic improvement their figures in their own flock would look better and conversely worse on the across flock analysis. However SIL has publically available tools (RamFinder and FlockFinder) to match farmers' trait priorities with breeders results. I can see how these could be fiddled by a dodgy breeder.

 

[Global ovine]

Oops! The last sentence in the post above should read "can't" not "can see how....." Sorry folks.

 

[JD-Kid]

so say a ram with 1535 in growth he's that value above the base avg ..

so it's apples with apples not compareing say a corrie to a texel for growth

i do like the cpt trials tho same base ewes and showing the rams input .. but would the base ewes not have inproved as well over the years ??

 

[Global ovine]

so say a ram with 1535 in growth he's that value above the base avg ..

so it's apples with apples not compareing say a corrie to a texel for growth

i do like the cpt trials tho same base ewes and showing the rams input .. but would the base ewes not have inproved as well over the years ??

You are quoting the NZ figures; yes that means he has an Index value for growth of $15.35 more than the average (base year of 1995) of the flock or flocks in that analysis only. You cannot compare animals not included in the same analysis.
The CPT and groups linked into the CPT including SILACE will compare all breeds for that trait as they are all included in that analysis. That is why so many people find it hard to accept that some top rams for a trait are from breeds they think is poor for that trait, eg. some of the top rams for lambing % are Romneys, and some top rams for growth are Texels.

Most of the ewes used in the CPT trial flocks are common between years. Their data can be easily extracted irrespective of what ram they get put to. One of the keys to this is having some rams used between years and on all sites. This links years and sites so all variations can be eliminated so just the sire differences as measured in their progeny are exposed.

 

[GenuineRisk]

On Facebook, written by Alasdair Houston - perfect summation as far as I am concerned:

Surprise, surprise, the EBV debate makes its annual reappearance in the run up to the main bull sales. The nonsense in all of this is why people seek to polarise it as they do. My personal view is simple: those who follow EBVs blindly, (as though following a satnav off a cliff ) are wrong. Those who ignore them blindly are equally wrong. Let's recognise that the stockman's eye and knowledge of pedigrees will and should ALWAYS have an important role in stock selection. Let's also wise up and acknowledge that science also has an important role to play. We can make our own minds up about how we balance the use of these skills and tools, but we ignore any of them at our peril. So come on, livestock community, let's get the debate out of the school playground and onto a more sensible level !

 

[NZDan]

On Facebook, written by Alasdair Houston - perfect summation as far as I am concerned:

Surprise, surprise, the EBV debate makes its annual reappearance in the run up to the main bull sales. The nonsense in all of this is why people seek to polarise it as they do. My personal view is simple: those who follow EBVs blindly, (as though following a satnav off a cliff ) are wrong. Those who ignore them blindly are equally wrong. Let's recognise that the stockman's eye and knowledge of pedigrees will and should ALWAYS have an important role in stock selection. Let's also wise up and acknowledge that science also has an important role to play. We can make our own minds up about how we balance the use of these skills and tools, but we ignore any of them at our peril. So come on, livestock community, let's get the debate out of the school playground and onto a more sensible level !

I thought this summed it up nicely as well.

http://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/...nderstand-or-dont-want-to-understand.22339380

 

[Woolless]

On Facebook, written by Alasdair Houston - perfect summation as far as I am concerned:

Surprise, surprise, the EBV debate makes its annual reappearance in the run up to the main bull sales. The nonsense in all of this is why people seek to polarise it as they do. My personal view is simple: those who follow EBVs blindly, (as though

following a satnav off a cliff ) are wrong. Those who ignore them blindly are equally wrong. Let's recognise that the stockman's eye and knowledge of pedigrees will and should ALWAYS have an important role in stock selection. Let's also wise up and acknowledge that science also has an important role to play. We can make our own minds up about how we balance the use of these skills and tools, but we ignore any of them at our peril. So come on, livestock community, let's get the debate out of the school playground and onto a more sensible level !

Mr Houston indeed has it bang on, particularly the satnav analogy. However, ploughing on without EBVs is like trying to go somewhere you don't know without even a map or asking for directions.

 

[NZDan]

Mr Houston indeed has it bang on, particularly the satnav analogy. However, ploughing on without EBVs is like trying to go somewhere you don't know without even a map or asking for directions.

I think one issue with EBVs is that folk never have a destination in mind. And don't know when to stop chasing a trait.(The "If 20 is better than 10 then 80 must be better than 70" mentallity).

 

[Walterp]

My uncle is in the petrol retail trade and he will tell no they don't just carry on buying it. As prices have risen, and the economy has slowed, petrol sales have fallen dramatically. He has seen it on his own forecourt, and says supermarket fuel sales are similar.

Agree with Big Al's comments on pricing and marketing though.

I looked this up, to see, as it didn't chime with what we see at our local petrol stations (not that that's anything to go on, of course).

In the period 2007 - 2012 UK diesel sales increased (14 billion to 16 billion litres) and petrol sales decreased (17 billion from 22 billion), although the AA attributes the shift to smaller, and derv-fuelled, cars as motorists react to rising prices. It's as much to do with changing motoring patterns as with anything else, as car sales have been reaching record highs.

 

[Poorbuthappy]

I looked this up, to see, as it didn't chime with what we see at our local petrol stations (not that that's anything to go on, of course).

In the period 2007 - 2012 UK diesel sales increased (14 billion to 16 billion litres) and petrol sales decreased (17 billion from 22 billion), although the AA attributes the shift to smaller, and derv-fuelled, cars as motorists react to rising prices. It's as much to do with changing motoring patterns as with anything else, as car sales have been reaching record highs.

I can use google too.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/transport/soaring-fuel-costs-blamed-as-petrol-sales-fall.22271042
Petrol sales in the 1st 1/2 of this year fell by OVER 25% compared to the same period in 2008,
whilst diesel sales for the same periods rose by 3.6%.
To me that seems a fair drop in fuel consumption overall.

Edit - sorry OP we're rather OT, though there was a link a few pages back somewhere!
Ah, yes, the link was that Walter suggested we shouldn't get so het up about being efficient, because just as people keep having to fill their car with petrol, so they'll keep having to buy our produce. Hmm, except perhaps they don't keep buying the petrol in the same way, cos, as you say Walter, they're switching to cheaper to run diesels/ smaller cars. Which is what'll happen if we price lamb out of the market isn't it? They'll turn increasingly to cheaper pork and poultry.
So perhaps ebv's are 1 important tool to help us become more efficient?

 

[Tim W]

On Facebook, written by Alasdair Houston - perfect summation as far as I am concerned:

Surprise, surprise, the EBV debate makes its annual reappearance in the run up to the main bull sales. The nonsense in all of this is why people seek to polarise it as they do. My personal view is simple: those who follow EBVs blindly, (as though following a satnav off a cliff ) are wrong. Those who ignore them blindly are equally wrong. Let's recognise that the stockman's eye and knowledge of pedigrees will and should ALWAYS have an important role in stock selection. Let's also wise up and acknowledge that science also has an important role to play. We can make our own minds up about how we balance the use of these skills and tools, but we ignore any of them at our peril. So come on, livestock community, let's get the debate out of the school playground and onto a more sensible level !

Very often though these approaches are focusing on different things

A stockmans eye and common sense will tell you if an animal is healthy/structurally sound/over fed whilst a litter size EBV is telling you the genetic potential for litter size in the animals progeny ---a thing even your best stockman will have problems predicting by the colour of it's ears/shape of face (I have been told that this is a good way of telling if a ewe is a good mother )

 

[JP1]

So this just pinged up on my Facebook page courtesy of MacGregor photography.

What should I be learning from what I'm reading - save that Catherine is a good photographer:


ARDGLASSON HIGHLANDER
D.O.B: 03/01/12
SIRE: FIELDSON ALFY DAM:ARDGLASSON DAISY
LOT 15 CARLISLE SAT 19TH OCTOBER
Highlander is a 5* rated bull for Maternal and Terminal Traits in the Irish Limousin Society performance scheme. He has 5* ratings for Docility, Carcase Weight and Conformation and 4* ratings for Milk placing him in the highest percentage rating of the Limousin breed. Highlander was Reserve Male Champion Highland Show 2013, Male Champion, Overall Supreme Champion and Reserve Interbreed Champion at the first Scottish National Grand Prix Black Isle Show. Junior Male Interbreed Perth show and Breed, Interbreed and Reserve Champion and Champions Drymen Show. — with Sarah Jane Jessop.

​

Catherine A MacGregor Photography
Liked · 23 minutes ago

ARDGLASSON HIGHLANDER
D.O.B: 03/01/12
SIRE: FIELDSON ALFY DAM:ARDGLASSON DAISY
LOT 15 CARLISLE SAT 19TH OCTOBER
Highlander is a 5* rated bull for Maternal and Terminal Traits in the Irish Limousin Society performance scheme. He has 5* ratings for Docility, Carcase Weight and Conformation and 4* ratings for Milk placing him in the highest percentage rating of the Limousin breed. Highlander was Reserve Male Champion Highland Show 2013, Male Champion, Overall Supreme Champion and Reserve Interbreed Champion at the first Scottish National Grand Prix Black Isle Show. Junior Male Interbreed Perth show and Breed, Interbreed and Reserve Champion and Champions Drymen Show. — with Sarah Jane Jessop.​

 

[Poorbuthappy]

I'd want to see his calving ease figures first.

 

[Walterp]

I'd want to see his calving ease figures first.

Fieldson Alfy?

Why would you even bother asking to see 'em?

 

[Poorbuthappy]

Fieldson Alfy?

Why would you even bother asking to see 'em?

Just concerns me that whilst other figures are quoted as top notch, calving ease is not mentioned.

Hmm, just looked up his ebv....

 

[Walterp]

Just concerns me that whilst other figures are quoted as top notch, calving ease is not mentioned.

Hmm, just looked up his ebv....

And that's not all - he has the reputation of producing, on a fairly regular basis, some really big calves.

Which is good, right?

Although I'd have to confess that his sons would not suit us as stock bulls, 'cos we're not set up to deal with assisted calvings; we'd rather have smaller calves that calve themselves, although I appreciate that it's a minority view that not everyone would agree with. I know someone with an Alfy son, and he's a nice bull but those guys fall into a different camp than us - they want to top the mart, Julie wants to improve her average.

Which is a different problem and needs a different bull.

 

[choochter]

The only use I can see for that type of bull is on mature cows in order to get replacement females.

Using a bull that may lead to hard calvings or big calves risks added costs via additional labour/vet fees/longer recovery time for the cow (leading to extended calving interval). My preference would be for a bull that gives smaller calves, born on time and vigorous so that the cow gets back in calf quickly. And that would let you keep more cows.
I've no figures to prove it though.

 

[topground]

The only use I can see for that type of bull is on mature cows in order to get replacement females.

Using a bull that may lead to hard calvings or big calves risks added costs via additional labour/vet fees/longer recovery time for the cow (leading to extended calving interval). My preference would be for a bull that gives smaller calves, born on time and vigorous so that the cow gets back in calf quickly. And that would let you keep more cows.
I've no figures to prove it though.

Agree, I have used Alta BB and Lim semen that they market for the dairy boys for this reason on my sucklers and have had no serious calving issues. Same with Stabilisers. A large dead calf is no good to me!