Red Tractor Beef lifetime Assurance.

I think the discounted and less regular inspections are a red herring myself. How can WLA be taken seriously with less regular inspections? It is an underhand way of introducing the scheme IMO.

I also think you are right in the respect that we should now embrace the idea. Make it yearly inspections, make the consumer pay for the privilege of having WLA beef and make sure the mechanisms such as databases and tracing are setup and working in advance. The producer MUST NOT pay for these costs. It is what the consumer wants so we will give it to them at the price it costs to implement and maintain.

Edit to add: I would also like to see enormous pressure put on the supermarkets and processors to stop this meat trading and price pressure which is what caused the whole horse meat saga. They have done nothing to root out the rot and expecting us to up the ante with WLA to make them look whiter than white, which we all know is utter rubbish.

It is perhaps one of the few chances we will get to turn the tables and take charge. Let's do it.

If everybody had to be full red tractor assured imagine the storm it would have caused, this less onerous,less costly scheme has been well thought out to make it easier for farmers to become farm assured. 70% of cattle start life farm assured and 90% end life as farm assured,we just need to fill out the middle. I agree with you it should be full red tractor or not and the choice left to the farmer to be in or out.

Red Tractor was never implicated in horse gate,even more reason for whole life assurance, let's assure the consumer that they are eating what is on the label and protect ourselves from it happening again,it is in our own interest.
 

milkloss

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
East Sussex
If everybody had to be full red tractor assured imagine the storm it would have caused, this less onerous,less costly scheme has been well thought out to make it easier for farmers to become farm assured. 70% of cattle start life farm assured and 90% end life as farm assured,we just need to fill out the middle. I agree with you it should be full red tractor or not and the choice left to the farmer to be in or out.

Red Tractor was never implicated in horse gate,even more reason for whole life assurance, let's assure the consumer that they are eating what is on the label and protect ourselves from it happening again,it is in our own interest.

I think you be be fairly sure RT will give no protection against horses turning into cows as they go through the slaughter house; that was down to others cutting cost and making money on the sly, not farmers. And anyhow, RT stayed quiet during the whole saga because they weren't sure that their labelled products weren't doctored with horse, pig chicken or whatever other carp they could through into processed food. Fat lot of good they were then eh?!

It's all well and good progressive farmers like yourself pushing the WLA idea but have you really thought out the mechanism of making it work? Did you read my post re the stickers idea, data on ear tag idea? Someone needs to really get a grip on this, the NFU hasn't I'm fairly sure.

Sort the protocols, the mechanisms and the REAL benefits first rather than floating an idea around that is merely paying lip service to the whimsical ideals of the consumers and super market or otherwise we will have a whole sh!t storm of hassle and trouble.

We are producing great beef under the RT already, don't funk it up thinking out loud about something that no one has absolutely any idea how they are going to make it work or pay for itself.
 
I think you be be fairly sure RT will give no protection against horses turning into cows as they go through the slaughter house; that was down to others cutting cost and making money on the sly, not farmers. And anyhow, RT stayed quiet during the whole saga because they weren't sure that their labelled products weren't doctored with horse, pig chicken or whatever other carp they could through into processed food. Fat lot of good they were then eh?!

It's all well and good progressive farmers like yourself pushing the WLA idea but have you really thought out the mechanism of making it work? Did you read my post re the stickers idea, data on ear tag idea? Someone needs to really get a grip on this, the NFU hasn't I'm fairly sure.

Sort the protocols, the mechanisms and the REAL benefits first rather than floating an idea around that is merely paying lip service to the whimsical ideals of the consumers and super market or otherwise we will have a whole sh!t storm of hassle and trouble.

We are producing great beef under the RT already, don't funk it up thinking out loud about something that no one has absolutely any idea how they are going to make it work or pay for itself.

You miss the point there was no red tractor assured food implicated, seems to work in my eyes.

It would be a whole lot easier to run than it is now, the 90 days to be farm assured is a lot of work for the finisher and the buyers checking stock qualify.

Some sort of sticker on passport or farmer declaration would be useful I agree,the simpler the better.

Could you imagine suggesting to the south west EID for cattle,all data stored on animals tag and the purchasing of hardware/software to go with it,that one would be interesting in the western daily the next week.
 

milkloss

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
East Sussex
You miss the point there was no red tractor assured food implicated, seems to work in my eyes.

It would be a whole lot easier to run than it is now, the 90 days to be farm assured is a lot of work for the finisher and the buyers checking stock qualify.

Some sort of sticker on passport or farmer declaration would be useful I agree,the simpler the better.

Could you imagine suggesting to the south west EID for cattle,all data stored on animals tag and the purchasing of hardware/software to go with it,that one would be interesting in the western daily the next week.

No, you're right it wasn't implicated but that doesn't really promote RT does it? I was implying they should have been confident of their labelled produce and gone into promotion over drive rather then skulk in a corner hoping they didn't get caught out. I know RT aren't into promotion but they should possibly in partnership with someone like EBLEX for example.

I wasn't suggesting labels in passports, far from it. Could you imagine pp sent for correction or more pages? Where the hell are you going to track all those stickers from the holdings the animal has been on. What if one dries out and falls off? ( remember those dodgy bcms holding stickers that dried and fell out?). no. Stickers are bad.

Ear tag holding data was suggested in an nfu meeting. I think that with tag retention and the cost of the gear to write/read data is a definite no go.

Database? Whose gonna pay? How do you check the data before buying? Data protection act? Which auctioneer is going to want the responsibility of chasing money back for an animal that missed an assured holding?

Some answers for you: pp will never need more pages because no more then 4 moves will be allowed.
Clearly for the reasons stated above stickers should be ruled out with little or no debate.

Database would be paid for by us but will be no good because of the data protection act and no prospective buyers would be able to see the data anyhoo. Not only that but moves would have to be recorded twice as mixing such data with the bcms could bring the whole cost of the bcms on our shoulders.

Auctioneers won't have to worry about chasing history and reclaiming money because said stock can't go through the auction ring due to the difficulties of checking data and excepting all that risk. Not only that but the ultimate goal of all this super controlled movement and assurance system is probably partly to do with eradicating the economic benefit of the transparent auction system through some thinly veiled promise of better welfare for the animal.
 

spin cycle

Member
Location
north norfolk
If you have all your eggs in order for farm assurance you are pretty much covered for a RPA inspection and if you are farm assured trading standards and animal health see you as lower risk. More should be done on this is future though. It is and always has been the farmers choice whether he/she is farm assured,no one is forcing them to be farm assured. The calf rearing scheme is going to cost approximately £100 per year,if low risk a 3 yearly inspection and much less onerous than full red tractor assurance,how is that going to force producers out of production. Everything in farm assurance is already covered by other inspections/law and is good farm practice,what do we have to be scarred about? More livestock will go into lowland areas because of the problems with black grass,tight rotations and a lack of organic matter in their soils. I see in the FG this week Britain's largest farmers is going into livestock for those very reasons.

1/ but isn't there some controversy about failed inspections in the north of england...so if you're all fa is it helping?
2/ i'm combinable crops assured,,,it's not voluntary it's blackmail...the only choice is to suck it up or get out
3/ no-one trusts RT...they'll bring it in then ratchet it up...we've seen it in other sectors...RT are rumoured to be bringing in reqts far in excess of the EU SUD for example (i've asked them about this last tuesday and no reply as yet)
4/ the more livestock on large arable farms remains to be seen....3 biggest operations in my area ,one has none,second lets their PP out, third told me he can't justify the labour for his sucklers now and is pondering what to do
5/ a biodigester will control as much blackgrass as stock IMO and cheaper


last tuesday i contacted tesco,asda and morrisons....despite promising a reply within 48 hrs only tesco have replied so far (fair play)....they said in effect that they want wla...i followed up by saying that they perhaps didn't care about the environmental/social cost...something they havn't denied as yet

now simon i've tried to answer all your points...can you give me your opinion on whether the nfu should push ahead with wla in the face of polls indicating 2 to 1 against wla (FW)?...if northern support is so strong why arn't they voting?....would you agree that given the controversy and enormity of the change the nfu should ballot it's members?

in your opinion is it the role of the nfu to represent it's members wishes?....or mollify the supermarkets?
 
Location
Devon
If you have all your eggs in order for farm assurance you are pretty much covered for a RPA inspection and if you are farm assured trading standards and animal health see you as lower risk. More should be done on this is future though. It is and always has been the farmers choice whether he/she is farm assured,no one is forcing them to be farm assured. The calf rearing scheme is going to cost approximately £100 per year,if low risk a 3 yearly inspection and much less onerous than full red tractor assurance,how is that going to force producers out of production. Everything in farm assurance is already covered by other inspections/law and is good farm practice,what do we have to be scarred about? More livestock will go into lowland areas because of the problems with black grass,tight rotations and a lack of organic matter in their soils. I see in the FG this week Britain's largest farmers is going into livestock for those very reasons.

Can you confirm if your a working livestock farmer or do you have a commercial intrest in the RT being pushed onto farmers??

As for cattle price's, deadweight of cattle is dropping every week currently.. the aim is to get it down to the Irish price, Farm assurance isn't making any difference to UK farm gate prices.. our prices have historically been higher than all other EU country's before farm assurance was even on the radar!!

Farm Assurance wont encourage arable farmers to go into livestock production.. only 3 things that will do that is the drive to return OM to stale arable ground and the need for a better break crop to get on to of BG/ the lack of chemicals to deal with weed problems..

As for the consumers.. are you talking about the supermarkets or the housewife?? as the latter doesn't give a damn about farm assurance and 90%+ have no idea what the RT logo is let alone what it stands for!!

The question still hasn't been answered is what happens to a farms stock if they are non assured for a few days for reasons such as the farmer has personal/ health problems for example?? will these stock then be worthless if WLA is introduced??

Also if the RT logo is so strong why is the collection centre's prices only 4pk less for non assured lambs??

And if you believe they wont ramp up the rules for a calve rearing scheme after a couple of years of it being introduced you are living in cloud cukoo land.. ( they said that about the current farm assurance when it was first mooted and what a lie that turned out to be!

Most farmers ( myself included ) support a basic farm assurance scheme covering say 20 main points but the rules being introduced for the current scheme are getting stupid and have no relevance for the safe/ welfare friendly rearing of animals but instead are just being introduced for the sake of it and also it needs to be voluntary and not forced onto farmers which is the case with the WLA proposal!!
 
Location
Devon
I think the discounted and less regular inspections are a red herring myself. How can WLA be taken seriously with less regular inspections? It is an underhand way of introducing the scheme IMO.

I also think you are right in the respect that we should now embrace the idea. Make it yearly inspections, make the consumer pay for the privilege of having WLA beef and make sure the mechanisms such as databases and tracing are setup and working in advance. The producer MUST NOT pay for these costs. It is what the consumer wants so we will give it to them at the price it costs to implement and maintain.

Edit to add: I would also like to see enormous pressure put on the supermarkets and processors to stop this meat trading and price pressure which is what caused the whole horse meat saga. They have done nothing to root out the rot and expecting us to up the ante with WLA to make them look whiter than white, which we all know is utter rubbish.

It is perhaps one of the few chances we will get to turn the tables and take charge. Let's do it.

UK beef is already 100% traceable in the Form of the very good BCMS system.. no scheme the RT quango can introduce can improve on the BCMS system..
 

romneymarsh

Member
Location
Romney Marsh
Can you confirm if your a working livestock farmer or do you have a commercial intrest in the RT being pushed onto farmers??

As for cattle price's, deadweight of cattle is dropping every week currently.. the aim is to get it down to the Irish price, Farm assurance isn't making any difference to UK farm gate prices.. our prices have historically been higher than all other EU country's before farm assurance was even on the radar!!

Farm Assurance wont encourage arable farmers to go into livestock production.. only 3 things that will do that is the drive to return OM to stale arable ground and the need for a better break crop to get on to of BG/ the lack of chemicals to deal with weed problems..

As for the consumers.. are you talking about the supermarkets or the housewife?? as the latter doesn't give a damn about farm assurance and 90%+ have no idea what the RT logo is let alone what it stands for!!

The question still hasn't been answered is what happens to a farms stock if they are non assured for a few days for reasons such as the farmer has personal/ health problems for example?? will these stock then be worthless if WLA is introduced??

Also if the RT logo is so strong why is the collection centre's prices only 4pk less for non assured lambs??

And if you believe they wont ramp up the rules for a calve rearing scheme after a couple of years of it being introduced you are living in cloud cukoo land.. ( they said that about the current farm assurance when it was first mooted and what a lie that turned out to be!

Most farmers ( myself included ) support a basic farm assurance scheme covering say 20 main points but the rules being introduced for the current scheme are getting stupid and have no relevance for the safe/ welfare friendly rearing of animals but instead are just being introduced for the sake of it and also it needs to be voluntary and not forced onto farmers which is the case with the WLA proposal!!


Ha ha yes he is a working farmer with many cows and sheep and his name is --- Simon Bainbridge ---- GUTH?

He is a personal advocate of WLA and RT on Twitter so I suggested he spread his thoughts on here.
 
Location
Devon
Ha ha yes he is a working farmer with many cows and sheep and his name is --- Simon Bainbridge ---- GUTH?

He is a personal advocate of WLA and RT on Twitter so I suggested he spread his thoughts on here.

Fine for him to spread his thoughts on here but the way he writes it came across as RT PR talk hence my question..

Does he sit on any of the RT quango's boards?
 

roscoe erf

Member
Livestock Farmer
There is nothing set in concrete but ultimately It will be whatever the Supermarkets want it to be.
The initial scheme might well be simple in order to suck in us gullible Farmers but you can bet your bottom dollar that those rules will change to screw us in the long term. This scheme is about controlling the market and the supply chain in the long run.
Please do not fall for this Farm Assurance nonsense unless you want to have all of your freedom to sell your cattle where and when you would like to, taken away.
would that not then become a monopoly
 

roscoe erf

Member
Livestock Farmer
ai2.wp.com_imgs.xkcd.com_comics_duty_calls.png
 
Location
Devon
Don't think so. Just talks as a producer who believes in the merits of assurance and WLA as part of it as many do in NE. Different to SW?

Can you ask him if he does actually sit on any RT boards just to clarify his intrest in RT/ farm assurance given his comments..

In the SW the majority of farmers ( im talking about the ones that are farm assured ) are/ have lost faith in the RT logo/ farm assurance and are questioning the value ( or rather lack of value ) of it going forward.. Also many people down here are getting fed up with all the extra rules being introduced ( ie : like the one's about recording every dead lamb/ rat bait plans etc last Oct ) also many of them don't believe a word the RT quango say anymore!

And yes it is a Quango ( what else can you call an organization that is addicted to introducing red tape for no reason yet don't achieve anything by doing so?? )
 

romneymarsh

Member
Location
Romney Marsh
Can you ask him if he does actually sit on any RT boards just to clarify his intrest in RT/ farm assurance given his comments..

In the SW the majority of farmers ( im talking about the ones that are farm assured ) are/ have lost faith in the RT logo/ farm assurance and are questioning the value ( or rather lack of value ) of it going forward.. Also many people down here are getting fed up with all the extra rules being introduced ( ie : like the one's about recording every dead lamb/ rat bait plans etc last Oct ) also many of them don't believe a word the RT quango say anymore!

And yes it is a Quango ( what else can you call an organization that is addicted to introducing red tape for no reason yet don't achieve anything by doing so?? )



He can speak for himself and will, I am sure , he's probably out feeding his cows! We've done the quango debate GUTH, many pages ago.( But Quangos Board members are appointed by Government, RT are not -- simples) .

I was just having a go !
 

SFI - What % were you taking out of production?

  • 0 %

    Votes: 77 43.5%
  • Up to 25%

    Votes: 62 35.0%
  • 25-50%

    Votes: 28 15.8%
  • 50-75%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 75-100%

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • 100% I’ve had enough of farming!

    Votes: 4 2.3%

Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

  • 1,285
  • 1
As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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