Regenerative agronomy

[Brisel]

Just because the elements are not available doesn't mean they are not there.

Touché

 

[Renaultman]

Tbh I've tissue and soil tested for years and know what will be short at what time. But all attempts at fixing deficiencies through soil application or foliars have failed to do more than cover their costs. Even adding muck, slurry etc and using fibrophos rather than bagged has not changed the fact that my potash releasing clay does not not get enough k into the plant if that's are to be believed.

Now that's just what I wanted to hear on a cold wet January night

 

[Brisel]

NIAB TAG have been trialling tonics & trace elements for decades. They just don't show consistent responses. I guess the best course of action is to build the healthiest soil you can. That's not going to stop me wanting check that everything manageable is in place along that journey.

 

[Renaultman]

NIAB TAG have been trialling tonics & trace elements for decades. They just don't show consistent responses. I guess the best course of action is to build the healthiest soil you can. That's not going to stop me wanting check that everything manageable is in place along that journey.

View attachment 853700

Snap. Get the worms and pals going and back up with foliar feed.
On another tangent and something that all of you probably already know of. My organic neighbour tells me that fungicides do almost as much damage as insecticides if they hit the soil by killing soil fungi. Interesting and potentially scary.

 

[teslacoils]

Now that's just what I wanted to hear on a cold wet January night

I'm just saying on my grade 3 clays that there will always be some constraint to yield. On grade 1 silts I doubt they will be overly fussed about DD and worn counts either. It's very much destined to be a niche area. Btw studies have shown I have loads of earthworms, and I have more in the shitter parts of the same field.

 

[Warnesworth]

Snap. Get the worms and pals going and back up with foliar feed.
On another tangent and something that all of you probably already know of. My organic neighbour tells me that fungicides do almost as much damage as insecticides if they hit the soil by killing soil fungi. Interesting and potentially scary.

I’m not convinced that fungicides are all bad to AMF. Jamie Stotzka gave a presentation to the BASE conference a few years back now showing her research that fungicides have little affect on AMF.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Snap. Get the worms and pals going and back up with foliar feed.
On another tangent and something that all of you probably already know of. My organic neighbour tells me that fungicides do almost as much damage as insecticides if they hit the soil by killing soil fungi. Interesting and potentially scary.

Damage is all relative. Insecticides don't necessarily kill all insects.

 

[Warnesworth]

Tbh I've tissue and soil tested for years and know what will be short at what time. But all attempts at fixing deficiencies through soil application or foliars have failed to do more than cover their costs. Even adding muck, slurry etc and using fibrophos rather than bagged has not changed the fact that my potash releasing clay does not not get enough k into the plant if that's are to be believed.

Is your ‘potash releasing clay’ stuffed to the gunwales with Mg?

 

[SilliamWhale]

I’m not convinced that fungicides are all bad to AMF. Jamie Stotzka gave a presentation to the BASE conference a few years back now showing her research that fungicides have little affect on AMF.

Given that AMF is underground and you expect most of the fungicide spray to go on the leaves that wouldn't totally surprise me. I would imagine we are killing "good" leaf fungus as well as bad with fungicide sprays though

 

[SilliamWhale]

I’m not convinced that fungicides are all bad to AMF. Jamie Stotzka gave a presentation to the BASE conference a few years back now showing her research that fungicides have little affect on AMF.

Given that AMF is underground and you expect most of the fungicide spray to go on the leaves that wouldn't totally surprise me. I would imagine we are killing "good" leaf fungus as well as bad with fungicide sprays though

 

[Renaultman]

I'm just saying on my grade 3 clays that there will always be some constraint to yield. On grade 1 silts I doubt they will be overly fussed about DD and worn counts either. It's very much destined to be a niche area. Btw studies have shown I have loads of earthworms, and I have more in the shitter parts of the same field.

I'm on similar grade 3 clay trying to earn a crust.

 

[Renaultman]

I

Is your ‘potash releasing clay’ stuffed to the gunnels with Mg?

Mine is.

 

[teslacoils]

I

Is your ‘potash releasing clay’ stuffed to the gunnels with Mg?

With respect, in the short time I've been doing this job I've had more next big things than I can remember. First it was soil testing, then that was sh!t and you needed albrech and CEC. Then CEC was sh!t, you needed tissue tests. Then it was all about calcium. Then earthworms. It's all complete junk. I can't even retest the same crop of field without hugely differing results through the year. So now I had it suggested that testing the grain post harvest was the best.

Let's not cock about - I test the bank balance as a measure of success.

We all know that

1) muck is good.
2) compaction is bad.
3) if you chuck fert on, bung some lime on too.
4) buy and use a spade.

The rest is just choice. You want to spend 23 years raising soil om by one percent? You want to try and integrate systems based on studies done in the US prairies on our maritime soils? There's a salesman for every system but you won't go far wrong with

Decent rotation (not wheat every other year)
Muck
Lime
Remove compaction.

Soil test attached but I'm sure it would be the wrong test, in the wrong lab, on the wrong day.

 

[Warnesworth]

With respect, in the short time I've been doing this job I've had more next big things than I can remember. First it was soil testing, then that was sh!t and you needed albrech and CEC. Then CEC was sh!t, you needed tissue tests. Then it was all about calcium. Then earthworms. It's all complete junk. I can't even retest the same crop of field without hugely differing results through the year. So now I had it suggested that testing the grain post harvest was the best.

Let's not cock about - I test the bank balance as a measure of success.

We all know that

1) muck is good.
2) compaction is bad.
3) if you chuck fert on, bung some lime on too.
4) buy and use a spade.

The rest is just choice. You want to spend 23 years raising soil om by one percent? You want to try and integrate systems based on studies done in the US prairies on our maritime soils? There's a salesman for every system but you won't go far wrong with

Decent rotation (not wheat every other year)
Muck
Lime
Remove compaction.

Soil test attached but I'm sure it would be the wrong test, in the wrong lab, on the wrong day.

That’s quite a response to a simple question. You said that you cannot get enough potash into your crops on a potash releasing clay. I was simply offering you an answer to your problem.
Your points 1-4 are totally valid and I don’t disagree. There is some other low hanging fruit also.

 

[ajd132]

im going to be honest here and say the more I look into the micro nutrient side of things the more confused I get. It doesn’t seem to make any difference to the crops and the readings are always different.
im on hanslope clay.

 

[Buggerallbandwidth]

How DO they measure N use efficiency? I can't see how it can be done accurately in the field?

I think it varies with the trial undertaken. I asked a NIABTAG trials Dr and he said they determine differences in product NUE as follows:-
For wheat it is grain yield by grain N content. For forage it would be biomass by biomass N content. This is compared to a plot of zero applied N.

So for example an application of 40 kg N (any source), a yield of 8t/ha and grain N of 2% (N not protein) then the crop has removed 8000kg by 2% which is 160 kg N removed in the grain.
You then need to compare this to the control, so for example the untreated plot yielded 6 t/ha at 2% grain N, so removing 6000 by 2% is 120 kg N /ha supplied from the soil reserves (SNS and SMN).
Thus we have 2000 kg of grain at 2%N from 40 kg N. In this poor example it has an NUE of 100% but for illustration it suffices

 

[Andy004]

Hi,
Yes, NUE can & is sometimes calculated like that, but there is an issue: the crop grows so poorly with zero N (in most soils) that it's unlikely to have the root capacity to exploit the soil N, which means the NUE of the treatment with applied N will be artificially high, as it will take up more soil N.

 

[Buggerallbandwidth]

Hi,
Yes, NUE can & is sometimes calculated like that, but there is an issue: the crop grows so poorly with zero N (in most soils) that it's unlikely to have the root capacity to exploit the soil N, which means the NUE of the treatment with applied N will be artificially high, as it will take up more soil N.

Yes I see that could be the case.
I expect they use their method for comparing one form of N against another rather than to determine the true NUE of a single product.

 

[Uwhat]

With respect, in the short time I've been doing this job I've had more next big things than I can remember. First it was soil testing, then that was sh!t and you needed albrech and CEC. Then CEC was sh!t, you needed tissue tests. Then it was all about calcium. Then earthworms. It's all complete junk. I can't even retest the same crop of field without hugely differing results through the year. So now I had it suggested that testing the grain post harvest was the best.

Let's not cock about - I test the bank balance as a measure of success.

We all know that

1) muck is good.
2) compaction is bad.
3) if you chuck fert on, bung some lime on too.
4) buy and use a spade.

The rest is just choice. You want to spend 23 years raising soil om by one percent? You want to try and integrate systems based on studies done in the US prairies on our maritime soils? There's a salesman for every system but you won't go far wrong with

Decent rotation (not wheat every other year)
Muck
Lime
Remove compaction.

Soil test attached but I'm sure it would be the wrong test, in the wrong lab, on the wrong day.

And that just about sums it up. Farm properly!