Remember this next time the Scouts want a field for camping

[Exfarmer]

Depending on what you read, the gut takes a fairly long time to recover from antibiotics. I think we will see a wholesale change in how these are prescribed IE more folk will just have to "tough it out" from minor infections.

Great idea, minor infections lead to sepsis a major killer before antibiotics came along and still a killer when infections are not diagnosed in time.

 

[Exfarmer]

I had a devastating accident when I was two and a half , I must have had gallons of antibiotics having had numerous skin grafts, they are or were essential due to the nature of grafting.
How did I miss out on all these awful problems asociated with these antibiotics? And as for sugar they used to put the drugs in sugar syrup to make them palatable.
I believe , but I know I will be shouted down for it the huge majority of problems put down ADHD are purely poor parenting

 

[Dragon]

I cut my leg on a gate in August, got a bad infection, and had strong antibiotics twice, my guts still haven't fully recovered.

I had a similar incident, had to take some strong antibiotics, the side effects was that I noticeably passed less wind much less if any. It really was quite a revelation then 6 months later I ate the kids leftover marmite on toast by mistake. ( I had stopped eating marmite because it could give bad wind) then normally services resumed...

If I eat marmite I could do a rendition of Mick the Master farter!!!

 

[texelburger]

Thats interesting, my son had severe ear infections as a child, bad enough for him not to hear properly for a few years and need speech therapy. He cannot take penicillin now (he is 24) as it will not work on any infection he picks up. He doesnt have ADHD etc but I am sure too much antibiotic didnt help him and we did try to limit its use as much as possible.

Bg

My wife worked as a secretary, for years,in the NHS.She refused to give our children antibiotics as children unless it was absolutely necessary. Some of our friends would take their children to the Doctor when they sniffed or sneezed and antibiotics were freely dished out.I know several of those children grew up with asthma and eczema.If there is a correlation I have no idea.

 

[Jackov Altraids]

Fecal transplant looks to be a help curing Crohn's disease.

Fecal drinks seem to have an amazing ability to help peoples health.

An interesting study on The incidence of colorectal cancer (CRC) finds;


"By comparing a random forest model built from our dataset with models built using external, largely developed cohorts, we demonstrated a surprising commonality of the CRC-associated microbiome, particularly CRC-associated taxa, between developed and developing populations. This finding is remarkable in light of technical differences between the studies (method of sample collection and amplicon versus metagenomic sequencing, to name the largest) and the fact that we combined CRC patients and non-CRC controls from four developing countries with distinct microbiome profiles. It should be noted, however, that whilst the direction of the effect is similar between our study and larger, more homogeneous, later-stage CRC cohorts, the magnitude of the effect is understandably smaller. The five taxa which were of greatest importance to the majority of these models were Parvimonas, Peptostreptococcus, Fusobacterium, Alistipes, and Escherichia. Although we were limited in the precision with which we could measure them, within these genera previous studies have associated several of their species with CRC: Peptostreptococcus stomatis [23], Peptostreptococcus anaerobius [45], Fusobacterium nucleatum [59], Parvimonas micra [59], Alistipes finegoldii [59], and pks+ Escherichia coli [2]. Of these, Fusobacterium nucleatum and pks+ Escherichia coli in particular have been suggested as putative ‘oncomicrobes’. Fusobacterium nucleatum has been shown to promote tumour proliferation, pro-tumour inflammation and to subvert anti-tumour immune responses [60], whilst colibactin, produced by pks+ Escherichia coli, has been shown to cause DNA damage [2].

Outside of these examples, many of the additional CRC-enriched taxa are oral bacteria that rarely colonise the gut during ‘health’ but have been implicated in a variety of inflammatory and dysbiotic conditions [61]. It has been hypothesised that oral microbial growth in the colon can cause increased mucosal permeability, with subsequent bacterial invasion, inflammation, and epithelial proliferation, and indeed associated biofilms have been shown to induce tumourigenesis in a mouse model [62,63,64]. Whether cause or consequence of tumour formation, the fact that these bacteria are found in both developed and developing cohorts points towards the oral microbiome as a shared source of CRC-associated taxa. Geographical differences of the oral microbiome have been described, but the universality of CRC-associated taxa derived from the oral microbiome has not, to our knowledge, been extensively investigated [65].

Continuing to explore the global effects of the microbiome on CRC has the potential to improve both the disease’s management worldwide and our understanding of the underlying basic biology. It will be important to expand the cohort by sampling a larger number of participants with more rigorous age and gender matching, in addition to expanding the number of countries profiled, as well as the geographical catchment within countries, many of which show great intra-country diversity. Importantly, microbiome profiling may provide valuable insight into the rising incidence of CRC within these countries, and the shared CRC-associated microbiome raises the potential of a generalisable microbiome-based CRC screening test. To this end, we have demonstrated that gFOBT is a suitable method of faecal sample collection for 16S rRNA gene research in developing countries (Argentina, Chile, India, and Vietnam) and that their CRC-associated microbiome shares many features with that of developed countries. We encourage other researchers to investigate the CRC microbiome in greater depth and in additional populations, with the goal of preventing or treating the disease around the globe."


Source: https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13073-021-00844-8

 

[melted welly]

How did I miss out on all these awful problems asociated with these antibiotics?

Because everyone is different? Because antibiotics when you were 2 were a different beast to what we have now? Because doses were different? Because people are different? Because your childhood environment was less sterile than the the new norm and you started with a stronger gut and immune system? Because the food you were given afterwards was less processed and and refined than what we have today? Could be anything.

But I know what our youngest lad has to live with and we are confident of the cause. Would we change anything in hindsight? No. Is he happy and healthy? Yes, we just don’t buy any processed or packeted foods, he lives on meat and 2 veg.

And as for sugar they used to put the drugs in sugar syrup to make them palatable.
I believe , but I know I will be shouted down for it the huge majority of problems put down ADHD are purely poor parenting

There will be an element of lack of parental input that encourages poor behaviour. Energy drinks for example, mega high sugar content, high caffeine in young bodies is a terrible thing, the stuff messes up adults.

There is also the fact that our eduction system is geared towards academically minded individuals, not everyone’s brain is wired that way. A lack of support for these other kids results in feelings of isolation and a lack of worth. My eldest does not fit the education system, give him the flip and flap book or whatever they hand out and he’s quickly bored, uninterested and looks for alternative stimulus. Give him a box of Lego and ask him to explain why titanic sank and he’ll spend hours at it.

He’s diagnosed with sensory deficit disorder. what is it? Dunno, he’s just not “normal”, and that’s great, his mind is amazing, it just doesn’t enjoy reading moronic, repetitive, bland school books.

I believe a good diet is a big big undervalued part of behavioural issues though.

 

[Flatlander]

My wife is a cub leader, warned her off the farm and told her to send the message up the line.
I might not get any supper tonight!

Holy sh1t. You should be on stage with a pair that size,

 

[willie waver]

I think a lot of medical disorders are now being found to have their origin in the micro biome, which we have co evolved with, our micro biome is affected by the food we eat, so I disagree with you on that note. This book goes into it, very interesting read.

In this riveting, shocking, and beautifully written book, biologist Alanna Collen draws on the latest scientific research to show how our personal colony of microbes influences our weight, our immune system, our mental health, and even our choice of partner. She argues that so many of our modern diseases—obesity, autism, mental illness, digestive disorders, allergies, autoimmunity afflictions, and even cancer—have their root in our failure to cherish our most fundamental and enduring relationship: that with our personal colony of microbes.

10% Human

You are just 10% human. For every one of the cells that make up the vessel that you call your body, there are nine impostor cells hitchin...

www.goodreads.com

funnily enough i was down the youtube rabbit hole just last night, and i ended up watching a video where some egghead was busting scientific myths. one of them was the 10 microbes for every cell in the body. apparently it was made up from guestimates, when a real count was done, the figure was close to 1 to 1. and every time you do a poop you sh!t about a third of your microbes out and they have to repopulate their numbers

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Inflamatory bowel conditions are almost non existent in countries where children have internal parasite history. But thats only one factor. Mrs teslacoils' UC only appeared when she was in her early 30s.

Michael Mosley mentions it in his book on the five two diet. I am sure some of these problems are related to "leaky gut syndrome" that the NHS used to say was, something alternative therapists believe happens, but now I think they are starting to take it seriously (again related to a reaction of the gut wall to signals originating from microbes in the gut, and also the production of mucus which is related to the amount of fibre we eat, or in fact don't eat!).

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Because everyone is different? Because antibiotics when you were 2 were a different beast to what we have now? Because doses were different? Because people are different? Because your childhood environment was less sterile than the the new norm and you started with a stronger gut and immune system? Because the food you were given afterwards was less processed and and refined than what we have today? Could be anything.

But I know what our youngest lad has to live with and we are confident of the cause. Would we change anything in hindsight? No. Is he happy and healthy? Yes, we just don’t buy any processed or packeted foods, he lives on meat and 2 veg.


There will be an element of lack of parental input that encourages poor behaviour. Energy drinks for example, mega high sugar content, high caffeine in young bodies is a terrible thing, the stuff messes up adults.

There is also the fact that our eduction system is geared towards academically minded individuals, not everyone’s brain is wired that way. A lack of support for these other kids results in feelings of isolation and a lack of worth. My eldest does not fit the education system, give him the flip and flap book or whatever they hand out and he’s quickly bored, uninterested and looks for alternative stimulus. Give him a box of Lego and ask him to explain why titanic sank and he’ll spend hours at it.

He’s diagnosed with sensory deficit disorder. what is it? Dunno, he’s just not “normal”, and that’s great, his mind is amazing, it just doesn’t enjoy reading moronic, repetitive, bland school books.

I believe a good diet is a big big undervalued part of behavioural issues though.

one of my colleagues at work used to look after a group of unemployed young people helping them try to get jobs. He said they were all unmanageable, they then gave a ruling, no drinking of Monster, Red Bull and other energy drinks during the day, and he said they were a changed group. Whether it was the sugar, caffeine affect on them, or their effect on the microbiome I don't know, but Ross said it made a huge difference.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Unfortunately it is true that some antibiotics wipe out our entire gut biome very readily. I have heard of cases where people got infected with C Diff, had a big course of antibiotics and then became lactose intolerant for many months after the treatment was completed.

I think C Diff is where they have permission to use poo transfusions (in the USA)

 

[Ffermer Bach]

funnily enough i was down the youtube rabbit hole just last night, and i ended up watching a video where some egghead was busting scientific myths. one of them was the 10 microbes for every cell in the body. apparently it was made up from guestimates, when a real count was done, the figure was close to 1 to 1. and every time you do a poop you sh!t about a third of your microbes out and they have to repopulate their numbers

I read that it is only just after leaving the toilet that there are more us cells in our bodies, soon builds up and goes the other way, until the next visit.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

If you aren't knocking them back already, would you be up to try kimchi, sauerkraut, kefir, as a course of fermented food that helps repopulate and nurture the innards until they're bursting with life?

If you decide you've developed a taste for them, you could top up with various sorts for maintenance. Bio-live yoghurt is good for that, if scobies, etc don't appeal.

I keep meaning to try to make my own sauerkraut, I don't like the idea of paying £3 for a pot of 19p cabbage! Have tried once, not a success, but will get around to trying again.

 

[ollie989898]

Fecal drinks seem to have an amazing ability to help peoples health.

An interesting study on The incidence of colorectal cancer (CRC) finds;


"By comparing a random forest model built from our dataset with models built using external, largely developed cohorts, we demonstrated a surprising commonality of the CRC-associated microbiome, particularly CRC-associated taxa, between developed and developing populations. This finding is remarkable in light of technical differences between the studies (method of sample collection and amplicon versus metagenomic sequencing, to name the largest) and the fact that we combined CRC patients and non-CRC controls from four developing countries with distinct microbiome profiles. It should be noted, however, that whilst the direction of the effect is similar between our study and larger, more homogeneous, later-stage CRC cohorts, the magnitude of the effect is understandably smaller. The five taxa which were of greatest importance to the majority of these models were Parvimonas, Peptostreptococcus, Fusobacterium, Alistipes, and Escherichia. Although we were limited in the precision with which we could measure them, within these genera previous studies have associated several of their species with CRC: Peptostreptococcus stomatis [23], Peptostreptococcus anaerobius [45], Fusobacterium nucleatum [59], Parvimonas micra [59], Alistipes finegoldii [59], and pks+ Escherichia coli [2]. Of these, Fusobacterium nucleatum and pks+ Escherichia coli in particular have been suggested as putative ‘oncomicrobes’. Fusobacterium nucleatum has been shown to promote tumour proliferation, pro-tumour inflammation and to subvert anti-tumour immune responses [60], whilst colibactin, produced by pks+ Escherichia coli, has been shown to cause DNA damage [2].

Outside of these examples, many of the additional CRC-enriched taxa are oral bacteria that rarely colonise the gut during ‘health’ but have been implicated in a variety of inflammatory and dysbiotic conditions [61]. It has been hypothesised that oral microbial growth in the colon can cause increased mucosal permeability, with subsequent bacterial invasion, inflammation, and epithelial proliferation, and indeed associated biofilms have been shown to induce tumourigenesis in a mouse model [62,63,64]. Whether cause or consequence of tumour formation, the fact that these bacteria are found in both developed and developing cohorts points towards the oral microbiome as a shared source of CRC-associated taxa. Geographical differences of the oral microbiome have been described, but the universality of CRC-associated taxa derived from the oral microbiome has not, to our knowledge, been extensively investigated [65].

Continuing to explore the global effects of the microbiome on CRC has the potential to improve both the disease’s management worldwide and our understanding of the underlying basic biology. It will be important to expand the cohort by sampling a larger number of participants with more rigorous age and gender matching, in addition to expanding the number of countries profiled, as well as the geographical catchment within countries, many of which show great intra-country diversity. Importantly, microbiome profiling may provide valuable insight into the rising incidence of CRC within these countries, and the shared CRC-associated microbiome raises the potential of a generalisable microbiome-based CRC screening test. To this end, we have demonstrated that gFOBT is a suitable method of faecal sample collection for 16S rRNA gene research in developing countries (Argentina, Chile, India, and Vietnam) and that their CRC-associated microbiome shares many features with that of developed countries. We encourage other researchers to investigate the CRC microbiome in greater depth and in additional populations, with the goal of preventing or treating the disease around the globe."


Source: https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13073-021-00844-8

There is thought to be a link between gut bacteria and mental health. They don't really understand why.

 

[teslacoils]

Great idea, minor infections lead to sepsis a major killer before antibiotics came along and still a killer when infections are not diagnosed in time.

It is a great idea, fully endorsed by swathes of scientific research. The NHS itself has produced research highlighting a) the overuse and b) misuse of antibiotics. Theres no need to take a kneejerk reaction as if ive suggested a return to the dark ages. It's widely known we use too many antibiotics and the NHS is modelling systems to reduce their use.

 

[teslacoils]

I believe , but I know I will be shouted down for it the huge majority of problems put down ADHD are purely poor parenting

No, that's true. The incidence of ADHD and autism etc is around three percent ( five in males, less in females). Compare this to the number claiming to have it. Approx 1/3 candidates for GCSE exams in my area claim extra time due to special needs. It's vastly overblown, and most is due to poor parenting.

 

[primmiemoo]

I keep meaning to try to make my own sauerkraut, I don't like the idea of paying £3 for a pot of 19p cabbage! Have tried once, not a success, but will get around to trying again.

I noticed that Lakeland sells the right sort of jars to ferment/ensile vegetables in, so it's not going to be dangerous to try

 

[Red Fred]

One of the things that has wound me up about vegans lately is the way a young lady behaved at my sister's birthday meal before Christmas. Several family members turned up including a young couple. The girl is a militant vegan and she has converted her policeman partner to the cause. My sister provided them with their own vegan meal, but the girl made a point of spending the whole evening loudly justifying veganism to her partner, knowing that we were on our livestock farm where my sister and I grew up, and my sister's husband is a very respected retired gamekeeper. We in turn simply kept out of the conversation and talked among ourselves although Mrs Fred became a bit tetchy when they started criticising horse riders., since Mrs Fred runs an RDA stable.
When I mentioned the behaviour to my sister the next day, she explained that the girl had had a very unhappy childhood with psychiatric problems and had suffered from severe eating disorders which ended up with her in a Devon clinic before she became an obsessive vegan, so in this case it seems like a genuine illness. It seems the girl's relationship with her mother was the root of it all.

 

[primmiemoo]

There is thought to be a link between gut bacteria and mental health. They don't really understand why.

Something to do with brain cells in the gut in dialogue with the brain via the vagus nerve? Can't remember where that notion came from, but it might have been from one of the Drs Van Tulleken.

 

[ollie989898]

Something to do with brain cells in the gut in dialogue with the brain via the vagus nerve? Can't remember where that notion came from, but it might have been from one of the Drs Van Tulleken.

The wiring diagram is a bit complex as the nerves interchange in varying locations. There are two sets of 'wiring', as each organ or part of the viscera has both sympathetic and parasympathetic innervation. The vagus nerve (cranial nerve number 10 or 'X') does a lot of the parasympathetic stuff.

From encyclopaedia Britannica (https://www.britannica.com/science/autonomic-nervous-system).