Romney

[Agrivator]

It used to be said sheep did best grazing the grass that grew the night before.

With sound comments like that, you obviously live on the right side of the Pennines.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

We're just on the right when you're looking north

 

[Global ovine]

A genuine question.
How does the 7cm pasture height business work when the seasons take matters out of my hands?

At the minute, I'm grazed tight almost everywhere. 5cm would be lush.
In about a month, (I surely hope) there'll be loads of keep, and keeping to 7cm could be feasible - if I were to dedicate a lot of time to fences and shepherding.
A few weeks after that, i'll have more grass than I could ever eat, which will then toughen off, die back, and serve the stock for autumn/winter fodder until/unless they need conserved grub.
(I've about 100 acres of hay land, 1400 unmowable, and common grazings on many thousands of acres of hill)

Hundreds of acres will be 20cm+ deep in grass by the end of summer, it can't realistically be topped, and gets burnt rotationally -if we get to it, and are feeling brave.
If I somehow managed to get it down to 7cm by late summer when it stops growing, come christmas - our winter- what would the poor beggars be living on?

As far as I can see, there'd be hill country all over the UK with much the same constraints on it.

The 7cm rule at lambing (as mentioned in my first response to the OP) is to give twin rearing ewes their best opportunity to maximise lactation to the demand of their lambs. Yes seasonal variation can easily take this out of a farmer's hands. Obviously of less importance in flocks with a low proportion of twins.

Some of the most valuable information a pastoralist can get is in the regional rate of growth graphs that show the mean curve and the variation. From these data planning for lambing date that best fits with spring growing covers can be achieved. In regions of extreme variability this would be of little use, but in most temperate regions, especially those with maritime influence, the normal variability between early and late commencement of growth is under 14 days, as day length as well as soil temperature dictate this. That doesn't mean that cold and wet conditions go away hampering growth, as can happen everywhere.

Everywhere in the temperate sheep world farmers try to produce killable lambs earlier and often assume that lambing earlier facilitates that opportunity. But if lambs are growing slower, the net result is they eat more to reach target slaughter weight, are on the farm longer adding to management costs (and GHG emissions are proportional to the extra feed demand and the seasonal decline in pasture quality) and their mothers have more BCS to restore after weaning.

A classic study was carried out in NZ's deep south demonstrating this in the early 1980s. A flock was split into district normal commencement of lambing time and 3 weeks later. The lambs from the later mob made up the 3 weeks with no weight difference by the time the early mob was 14 weeks of age.
Although this research influenced lambing date for a couple of decades, lambing dates have now crept back as feed planning programmes and better winter management enables seasonal cover goals to be more easily achieved.

@egbert ; I cannot comment on your specific case as I know nothing about your farm other than written above. In saying that and from afar, I would ask questions regarding your lambing date, proportion of ewes having multiples and your ability to subdivide grazing areas to better control the late spring feed flush and maintaining a legume base for feed quality. I am surprised that there is sufficient quality of summer grown "standing hay" to last for autumn winter grazing, as this is common only in very low rainfall regions ie. under 10 inches pa. Forget all about the 7cm rule outside of the 12 weeks after lambing for extensive grazing.

Equivalent farms in NZ as described by @egbert are being sold for forestry, as carbon credits at $NZ35.00/T are about 3 times more profitable than extensive livestock farming on a per annum basis and pundits claim this rate could double.

Apologies to the OP for this topic deviation.

 

[JD-Kid]

Equivalent farms in NZ as described by @egbert are being sold for forestry, as carbon credits at $NZ35.00/T are about 3 times more profitable than extensive livestock farming on a per annum basis and pundits claim this rate could double.

one dairy outfit is working on will go up to 150 a unit but yer have to pay alot back if logged or just do what will happen with the carbon forests milked for all the credits then left for someone else to sort out

 

[beardface]

one dairy outfit is working on will go up to 150 a unit but yer have to pay alot back if logged or just do what will happen with the carbon forests milked for all the credits then left for someone else to sort out

You also swap a diverse pastoral environment for monoculture pines!

 

[Bald n Grumpy]

It used to be said sheep did best grazing the grass that grew the night before.

Thought it used to be that once it got taller than a swan Vesta match box it was no good for sheep. Read that one Shepherd used to throw a threepenny bit over the gate as far as he could, if he couldn't find it easily he would go in with a set of gang mowers. How things have changed!

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

Thought it used to be that once it got taller than a swan Vesta match box it was no good for sheep. Read that one Shepherd used to throw a threepenny bit over the gate as far as he could, if he couldn't find it easily he would go in with a set of gang mowers. How things have changed!

We still graze sheep in this way and to a certain extent cattle also.
It wasn't a threepenny bit, it was an old silver sixpence which was even smaller! We used to have the gang mowers too, but over the years we have got better at stocking and run enough cattle with the sheep to keep the grass down.

However we are mostly in a very different situation to many and what we do cannot be replicated easily on other soil types and with other breeds of sheep.
Firstly we are mostly grazing very old permanent pasture, some not disturbed now for over 70 years. The grasses that grow and more important the clover is fairly unique to the Romney Marsh. Kent perennial ryegrass is a very persistent grass that needs to be continually grazed but more importantly the Kent wild white clover is a fantastic plant that needs careful management (keeping the grass as short as possible so not to shade it). It is very low growing and persistent and it is impossible to graze it out, it thrives on the bare ground and not only is providing a lot of Nitrogen, it is like rocket fuel for the lambs. Ewes are set stocked at 4.5 with twins and 6 plus with singles. Cattle are set stocked at 1 to the acre at 24 months age for finishing off the grass. No fertilizer is used at all!

There is a very important old saying here that you "never want to eat May grass in June". The importance of this is to make sure the grass is short at the end of May to allow the clover to thrive when the normal summer drought comes here.
It is one of the reasons that other breeds of sheep do not survive here!

 

[Agrivator]

If you are familiar with the verges on the sides of roads which run through poor moorland: the herbage has been improved by the materials used to build the road, by its better drainage, and then by droppings from the sheep and sometimes cattle, which spend time overnight lying on the road, because they understand completely the differences in thermal capacity of tarmac versus Mollinia, Nardus and Erica.

The roadside vegetation, a bowling green consisting of mainly fescues and white clover, hasn't changed in my lifetime, despite being grazed continually to the bone.

 

[egbert]

The 7cm rule at lambing (as mentioned in my first response to the OP) is to give twin rearing ewes their best opportunity to maximise lactation to the demand of their lambs. Yes seasonal variation can easily take this out of a farmer's hands. Obviously of less importance in flocks with a low proportion of twins.

Some of the most valuable information a pastoralist can get is in the regional rate of growth graphs that show the mean curve and the variation. From these data planning for lambing date that best fits with spring growing covers can be achieved. In regions of extreme variability this would be of little use, but in most temperate regions, especially those with maritime influence, the normal variability between early and late commencement of growth is under 14 days, as day length as well as soil temperature dictate this. That doesn't mean that cold and wet conditions go away hampering growth, as can happen everywhere.

Everywhere in the temperate sheep world farmers try to produce killable lambs earlier and often assume that lambing earlier facilitates that opportunity. But if lambs are growing slower, the net result is they eat more to reach target slaughter weight, are on the farm longer adding to management costs (and GHG emissions are proportional to the extra feed demand and the seasonal decline in pasture quality) and their mothers have more BCS to restore after weaning.

A classic study was carried out in NZ's deep south demonstrating this in the early 1980s. A flock was split into district normal commencement of lambing time and 3 weeks later. The lambs from the later mob made up the 3 weeks with no weight difference by the time the early mob was 14 weeks of age.
Although this research influenced lambing date for a couple of decades, lambing dates have now crept back as feed planning programmes and better winter management enables seasonal cover goals to be more easily achieved.

@egbert ; I cannot comment on your specific case as I know nothing about your farm other than written above. In saying that and from afar, I would ask questions regarding your lambing date, proportion of ewes having multiples and your ability to subdivide grazing areas to better control the late spring feed flush and maintaining a legume base for feed quality. I am surprised that there is sufficient quality of summer grown "standing hay" to last for autumn winter grazing, as this is common only in very low rainfall regions ie. under 10 inches pa. Forget all about the 7cm rule outside of the 12 weeks after lambing for extensive grazing.

Equivalent farms in NZ as described by @egbert are being sold for forestry, as carbon credits at $NZ35.00/T are about 3 times more profitable than extensive livestock farming on a per annum basis and pundits claim this rate could double.

Apologies to the OP for this topic deviation.

Legumes? Tillage not really an option, so playing with species isn't practical.
Subdivision? A number of obstacles, all of which would be trumped by lack of potential reward for labour input against other ventures.

'under 10 inches pa'? try 100"...several gauges on the hill last year took 130"+
The scotch ewes live on it right through winter. It can be brutal on them when the going is heavy, but that's where they live...end of.
Carefully bred flocks persist.

Lambing dates? We collectively go for mid april - and agree a 'clear' period on the commons to accommodate parasite control.
Avoid multiples when we can. Weaning 100% off the hill ewes is a good year.

And I'm not blind to the forestry income potential -for production, rather than the current fantasy fixation on pretending carbon from oil can be held in trees.
But on the main farm I'm a tenant, which complicates matters, and those of us grazing the common would obviously have a legal minefield to navigate.
Anyway, we're not about to unpick generations of breeding and culture on a whim.



I have noted going much later see lambing % plummet. Earlier is fraught with risk

 

[egbert]

If you are familiar with the verges on the sides of roads which run through poor moorland. The herbage has been improved by the materials used to build, and then by droppings from sheep which accumulate from sheep which spend time overnight lying on the road, because they understand completely the differences in thermal capacity of tarmac versus Mollinia, Nardus and Erica.

The roadside vegetation, a bowling green consisting of mainly fescues and white clover, hasn't changed in my lifetime, despite being grazed continually to the bone.

not sure George Monbiot quite understands this^^^^^^

 

[Agrivator]

not sure George Monbiot quite understands this^^^^^^

I know. And at one time, Lapwings would nest in their hundreds within a few yards, despite the passing of cars etc.

But that was when gamekeepers and shepherds ensured a sensible balance between predators and their victims.

And if they could breed the wool off their legs, the Romney might have a bigger uptake --- see below.

 

[Agrivator]

 

[Jimdog1]

I know. And at one time, Lapwings would nest in their hundreds within a few yards, despite the passing of cars etc.

But that was when gamekeepers and shepherds ensured a sensible balance between predators and their victims.

This is the thing isn't it - it is easy for "clever people " to take one aspect of what we as farmers do and tear it apart and pronounce it "destructive ". But mess with one bit and you upset the balance. And we're all part of that balance aren't we? Farmers, consumers, environmental groups, supermarkets, flora,fauna.......I could continue. I think most of us do our best to strike a good balance for all.

 

[Hilly]

If you are familiar with the verges on the sides of roads which run through poor moorland: the herbage has been improved by the materials used to build the road, by its better drainage, and then by droppings from the sheep and sometimes cattle, which spend time overnight lying on the road, because they understand completely the differences in thermal capacity of tarmac versus Mollinia, Nardus and Erica.

The roadside vegetation, a bowling green consisting of mainly fescues and white clover, hasn't changed in my lifetime, despite being grazed continually to the bone.

It’s the winter salt .

 

[egbert]

It’s the winter salt .

it's more than just the salt.
Limestone road surfaces in a lot of areas would've raised the ph, and in the pre-motor era, centuries of oss poop likely had an effect

 

[Agrivator]

it's more than just the salt.
Limestone road surfaces in a lot of areas would've raised the ph, and in the pre-motor era, centuries of oss poop likely had an effect

And carters and tourists stopping for a pee.

 

[Global ovine]

Legumes? Tillage not really an option, so playing with species isn't practical.
Subdivision? A number of obstacles, all of which would be trumped by lack of potential reward for labour input against other ventures.

'under 10 inches pa'? try 100"...several gauges on the hill last year took 130"+
The scotch ewes live on it right through winter. It can be brutal on them when the going is heavy, but that's where they live...end of.
Carefully bred flocks persist.

Lambing dates? We collectively go for mid april - and agree a 'clear' period on the commons to accommodate parasite control.
Avoid multiples when we can. Weaning 100% off the hill ewes is a good year.

And I'm not blind to the forestry income potential -for production, rather than the current fantasy fixation on pretending carbon from oil can be held in trees.
But on the main farm I'm a tenant, which complicates matters, and those of us grazing the common would obviously have a legal minefield to navigate.
Anyway, we're not about to unpick generations of breeding and culture on a whim.



I have noted going much later see lambing % plummet. Earlier is fraught with risk

During the two decades following WW2 almost all of NZ's high country, even that which was snow covered all winter and only capable of grazing adult wethers for wool, was aerial oversown with clovers, often after burning off the trash. This turned the productivity of such country around. Is introducing new pasture species prohibited in the UK in such country?

Matured grass forming a dense mat of any height rots with fungal action (faster if squashed down by snow) and most cannot be eaten and is recycled. Overall stocking rate limitations are usually imposed on such country. However mob stocking enabled by subdivision has meant that a much higher proportion of pasture grown can be consumed. As an anti carbon farming supporter, I fear that market economics will win to the destruction of rural communities/population, as they will get paid credits for their plant growth, whereas the extensive pastoral situation is less efficient because the carbon is cycled annually.

Now you (@egbert) have intimated that twinning ewes are much fewer and less desirable in your flock, there is no reason for you to aim at a 7cm pasture height at lambing. Three cms is quite adequate for single rearing ewes. In fact your ewe BCS is more important to act as a buffer in those poorer springs.

FYI; the third oestrus has the highest ovulation rate in sheep (if ewes are kept in constant BCS/live weight). The higher the latitude the more seasonal all breeds become. But if environmental constraints mean efforts to limit twinning, timing of mating is not so critical and especially ignoring premating flushing is a big saving of the autumn grown feed bank.

My immediate neighbour, Earnscleugh Station, has over 20,000 Merino ewes running up into high range country which gets snowfalls in all months of the year. They have 5 different Merino studs in this flock. With a history of subdivision and oversowing twinning is now encouraged. One stud carries the Inverdale gene in an effort to capture the benefit of the additional feed now grown.

 

[exmoor dave]

During the two decades following WW2 almost all of NZ's high country, even that which was snow covered all winter and only capable of grazing adult wethers for wool, was aerial oversown with clovers, often after burning off the trash. This turned the productivity of such country around. Is introducing new pasture species prohibited in the UK in such country?

Matured grass forming a dense mat of any height rots with fungal action (faster if squashed down by snow) and most cannot be eaten and is recycled. Overall stocking rate limitations are usually imposed on such country. However mob stocking enabled by subdivision has meant that a much higher proportion of pasture grown can be consumed. As an anti carbon farming supporter, I fear that market economics will win to the destruction of rural communities/population, as they will get paid credits for their plant growth, whereas the extensive pastoral situation is less efficient because the carbon is cycled annually.

Now you (@egbert) have intimated that twinning ewes are much fewer and less desirable in your flock, there is no reason for you to aim at a 7cm pasture height at lambing. Three cms is quite adequate for single rearing ewes. In fact your ewe BCS is more important to act as a buffer in those poorer springs.

FYI; the third oestrus has the highest ovulation rate in sheep (if ewes are kept in constant BCS/live weight). The higher the latitude the more seasonal all breeds become. But if environmental constraints mean efforts to limit twinning, timing of mating is not so critical and especially ignoring premating flushing is a big saving of the autumn grown feed bank.

My immediate neighbour, Earnscleugh Station, has over 20,000 Merino ewes running up into high range country which gets snowfalls in all months of the year. They have 5 different Merino studs in this flock. With a history of subdivision and oversowing twinning is now encouraged. One stud carries the Inverdale gene in an effort to capture the benefit of the additional feed now grown.

Much of the hill moorland over here is designated SSSI (site of special scientific interest), so you definitely wouldn't be allowed to seed out with introduced species.

Even feeding hay on the moor can get you in hot water, from fear of introducing seed in the hay.

Last time we fed hay on the moor to cattle, during snow, so a welfare issue, we got rather a telling off from the powers-that-be.

To be honest, I think most moorland would be too wet and/or acidic to attempt to over seed, even after burning

 

[JD-Kid]

To be honest, I think most moorland would be too wet and/or acidic to attempt to over seed, even after burning

we are dry and acid but there are plants out there that will grow
like yer saying sites of interest is coming in here. new laws in shire plans will mean alot of stuff can't be touched tussocks here under new plan can be grazed but not burnt plowed under cleared etc etc same with some scrub and trees

 

[ShooTa]

frank - is the clover short because its never been able to express its self?>