Rotations

Following on from other threads I was just wondering what rotation people use.

I'm on heavy clay land and use a 'min til' type system.

Plan to do WB / WB / WOSR / WB / WB / Spr Beans

The barley will be grown for seed.

Just wondering what other break crops people would suggest? ( I want to keep the WB / WB options for various reasons ).

From a quick look round, there doesn't seem to be a reliable break crop that fits.

Maize - worried about ruts and ground conditions after.
LInseed - have tried spring before with varying success - worried Hares will eat any winter I grow.
Any root crop - again land condition afterwards.
 

Elmsted

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
Bucharest
So pig man you have a plan as in OP for six years. What have you factored in to that in terms of risk. Have you a revolving cash flow. Have you allowed for climatic conditions.

A rotation as outlined by Turnip Townshend two centuries ago in a non global trading environment. Is hardly the way to go in my view in 2012. Flexibility is paramount surely. Rotations are purely theories for spread sheets. Rotations are but a hang over from previous generations.
 

Brisel

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Midlands
Moving to WW/SpB/WB/WOSR from WW/B/WOSR where the barley split was 2/3 spring 1/3 winter. The change is mainly for logistics reasons - a large area of spring barley stubble to turn around into winter osr in a short time which was fine in a kind autumn but not for the last 3 years where most of the osr was sown in September.

Oats - not with grass weeds & a wild oat/brome problem
Linseed - possibly but makes September busier
Pulses - pigeon bait & a chequered history here
Continuous wheat - no way. Weeds, take all & spray timings.
All barley - too risky & compresses harvest timings too much. Hard to control blackgrass & brome except in spring barley.
Maize - no need for it unless letting land out to a dairy farmer
Grass leys - ditto
Stubble brassica catch crops - I do a few acres each year to outwinter a small sucker herd of my own.

My aim is to spread the risk of one crop having a bad year & to run existing levels of horsepower. I think that it covers the risk, cash flow & climate that you refer to. I work in a business driven by spread sheets. Rotations allow for spreading work loads & key timings for harvest, sowing, sprays & fertiliser.

Elmsted - what has been your cropping split? Is it based on forward prices that you lock into before making a planting decision? Do you have issues with long runs of the same crop year after year? I agree that flexibility is important to a point but disagree with your sweeping statement that rotations have no place in today's market. What looks good now won't be post harvest when everyone else has seen the same opportunity & the herd has flooded the market. Consistency is underrated IMHO.
 
So pig man you have a plan as in OP for six years. What have you factored in to that in terms of risk. Have you a revolving cash flow. Have you allowed for climatic conditions.

A rotation as outlined by Turnip Townshend two centuries ago in a non global trading environment. Is hardly the way to go in my view in 2012. Flexibility is paramount surely. Rotations are purely theories for spread sheets. Rotations are but a hang over from previous generations.

Nothing is set in concrete - and any rotation I have in mind is merely a plan of what I intend to do if everything goes according to plan.
In theory it's not just a six year rotation, but will keep repeating over and over.
Cash flow isn't the main factor - long term planning to get things right is.
 

Bluetooth

Member
Location
North east
we usually aim at ww/ww/wb/wosr with a bit of variance depending on field sizes. got wosr/wb/ww/sbeans and sw atm probably start the spring barely tomorow too;) very much doubt we will be back to the norm next year either probably be a bit of spring stuff in somewhere
 

Bluetooth

Member
Location
North east
usually a bit of WW in the WB but it doesnt do much harm as we dont sell it for seed (although surprising how much wheat they seem to allow in some of the barley samples sold) , dont think theres ever been a problem the other way round though.
 

Elmsted

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
Bucharest
Nothing is set in concrete - and any rotation I have in mind is merely a plan of what I intend to do if everything goes according to plan.
In theory it's not just a six year rotation, but will keep repeating over and over.
Cash flow isn't the main factor - long term planning to get things right is.

Is that not simply building limits on paper and metaly to stick with something that may not be sustainable in fiscal, climatic, agronomic & technology changes.

I see later you refer to seed production why, is not that transient and assumes ongoing commitments primarily from you and secondly the breeder or sustainer.

But I do take on board your view, given that in 1989 the family farm I left still has the same old system of rotation in 2012. And the same old level of profitability.

What is dissapointing is that no change has occured. No inovation.
 
Is that not simply building limits on paper and metaly to stick with something that may not be sustainable in fiscal, climatic, agronomic & technology changes.

I see later you refer to seed production why, is not that transient and assumes ongoing commitments primarily from you and secondly the breeder or sustainer.

But I do take on board your view, given that in 1989 the family farm I left still has the same old system of rotation in 2012. And the same old level of profitability.

What is dissapointing is that no change has occured. No inovation.

Without a long term plan and an idea of rotation, surely the risk of diseases problem increases.
I don't just want to grow whatever is profitable this year, I want a long term plan.
I like to be in control of what I can change. A sensible rotation, is the main key for me.
 

franklin

New Member
Don't you guys suffer with WW / WB volunteers in your following opposing crops?!
Growing seed my volunteer count has to be basically zero!

Grow oats as a first cereal, then barley or wheat 2nd? Oats easy and cheap to spray out of WB and WW. Loads of lovely straw for the piggies. Harvest will be ready just after you have grown the rape. Land easier to work after them. So low input you would cry. Grow them after the beans.

My aims are a) grow some things that are fun and b) try and make a tidy pile of money.

Alternatively, stop growing for seed?

Try some peas - if you have all that barley you will have plenty of time to scrape them off the floor, and no wheat harvest to clash with them.

Those with "friendly" AHA rent levels, or owned land can pretty much grow what they like. Next year, for all my fun, I am back to growing Claire. It will be like welcoming back an old friend.
 

Mr Tree

Member
Location
Sth Yorkshire
Never stopped growing Claire or cordiale or a ww wb osr or ww ww sbean rotation ,I'm afraid all this spread sheet crap that I actually do just doesn't work out most of the time and sure as eggs are eggs simple systems do . A mixed and diversified farm is also the way forward ,intensive and specialist systems have no get out of jail plan behind them .
 

Elmsted

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
Bucharest
Without a long term plan and an idea of rotation, surely the risk of diseases problem increases.
I don't just want to grow whatever is profitable this year, I want a long term plan.
I like to be in control of what I can change. A sensible rotation, is the main key for me.

Risk of disease please let us know which one given your prediliction for straw crops.
Farming is a one year plan. If a harvest as I have often said does not supply enough funds to plant 100% of surface for harvest two. Then downgrade your ambitions.
As to thinking that farming is something one can control, Sure build cars in a factory with a roof. Farming is more akin to entering Monte Carlo casino as mother nature does not flex to our wishes.
Planning 6 years in advance with an idea that is what you will do is surely just spreadsheet stuff. One surely/hopefully has the intuative feel year on year as to what to plant and react in an appropriate manner to all hurdles.

Blue prints are not the saviour they seemed to be 30+ years ago. And they only ever covered one growing season.

Just as I see it.
 
Risk of disease please let us know which one given your prediliction for straw crops.
Farming is a one year plan. If a harvest as I have often said does not supply enough funds to plant 100% of surface for harvest two. Then downgrade your ambitions.
As to thinking that farming is something one can control, Sure build cars in a factory with a roof. Farming is more akin to entering Monte Carlo casino as mother nature does not flex to our wishes.
Planning 6 years in advance with an idea that is what you will do is surely just spreadsheet stuff. One surely/hopefully has the intuative feel year on year as to what to plant and react in an appropriate manner to all hurdles.

Blue prints are not the saviour they seemed to be 30+ years ago. And they only ever covered one growing season.

Just as I see it.

Think it's best we agree to disagree and leave it at that! :D (y)
 

Colin

Member
Location
Perthshire
Anything goes, keep potatoes to one in six or seven, carrots the same. OSR one in six or so, osr after whatever works, wheat after pots, osr, peas, oats. Peas one in 5 or 6, then fit everything else in, keeps life interesting.
 

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
Risk of disease please let us know which one given your prediliction for straw crops.
Farming is a one year plan. If a harvest as I have often said does not supply enough funds to plant 100% of surface for harvest two. Then downgrade your ambitions.
As to thinking that farming is something one can control, Sure build cars in a factory with a roof. Farming is more akin to entering Monte Carlo casino as mother nature does not flex to our wishes.
Planning 6 years in advance with an idea that is what you will do is surely just spreadsheet stuff. One surely/hopefully has the intuative feel year on year as to what to plant and react in an appropriate manner to all hurdles.

Blue prints are not the saviour they seemed to be 30+ years ago. And they only ever covered one growing season.

Just as I see it.

You've challenged paradigms and set me thinking Elmsted, just what the forum is for and you're probably more right than wrong!

Having said that, B&B Pig Man isn't planning 6 years in advance really. He would only be doing that if he was going to plant all his farm in WB this year and next, and all his farm in OSR in year 3 etc, in line with his proposed rotation. The reality is he's actually planning to plant three different crops this year - 67% of it will be down to WB, and just over 33% down to a combination of OSR and Spring Beans.

No doubt if he suffered a couple of years of failure on, say, OSR (!) then he would readdress the rotation. He wouldn't carry on doggedly to the end of year 6, repeating the same mistake each year.
I hope.:rolleyes:

By making some sort of plan, you can make your farm more efficient eg block cropping & logistics, weed control, etc.

I agree farming is akin to entering a Monte Carlo casino but whether you make a plan and roughly follow it or don't plan and make decisions in August each year, you're still gambling with the unknown.
 
What about WW/WW/SBarley/WBarley/Beans and Potatoes.

WW would just be 2 varieties to keep things simple and I dont grow or store the pots so I would only be storing 4 different varieties of crops which is ok for current storage set up.
 

Elmsted

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
Bucharest
Compliant with Pig man's wishes. Agree with what you say. But equaly suggest to keep the monte Carlo roulette wheel analogy spinning. My view or experience has created it is such that I look at rotation from a start point of the wheel has only red and black. That = 50% winter + 50% spring evens bet. And covers all options.
Then there reality of block cropping which is only way to go with a large farm. So then factor in risk management which is essential. I have 5 crops which I can grow in our climate as mainstays, knowing there are and will be buyers. So that means a 20% risk on each. So therefore put 5 more bets centre table. Split so 4 are on numbers half odd half even and one bet split odd & even.

Yes I had a year when the income from the previous harvest was not enough to finance the next years harvest over all the land. Simple cut out the winter crops. Therefore grew 50% of land and that gave better cashflow and liquidity to do the spring cropping. As always an optimist the spring crop 25% gave an entry for winter wheat.

Sometimes one has enough to randomly bet on one birth date. Always do it, cause it has often paid off best.
Hence never grow second wheats. But often grow second maize.

Please do not use the above when you enter the Casino on the inside of bend in the track at Monte Carlo.
 

The Ruminant

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Hertfordshire
Compliant with Pig man's wishes. Agree with what you say. But equaly suggest to keep the monte Carlo roulette wheel analogy spinning. My view or experience has created it is such that I look at rotation from a start point of the wheel has only red and black. That = 50% winter + 50% spring evens bet. And covers all options.
Then there reality of block cropping which is only way to go with a large farm. So then factor in risk management which is essential. I have 5 crops which I can grow in our climate as mainstays, knowing there are and will be buyers. So that means a 20% risk on each. So therefore put 5 more bets centre table. Split so 4 are on numbers half odd half even and one bet split odd & even.

Yes I had a year when the income from the previous harvest was not enough to finance the next years harvest over all the land. Simple cut out the winter crops. Therefore grew 50% of land and that gave better cashflow and liquidity to do the spring cropping. As always an optimist the spring crop 25% gave an entry for winter wheat.

Sometimes one has enough to randomly bet on one birth date. Always do it, cause it has often paid off best.
Hence never grow second wheats. But often grow second maize.

Please do not use the above when you enter the Casino on the inside of bend in the track at Monte Carlo.

I'm the man who visited Vegas and only stayed for half a day - preferred to go and see the Hoover Dam and swim in the lake behind it, so no chance of me using the above in a Casino in Monte Carlo!

Deciphering what you said, you grow two winter crops, two spring crops and one crop split 50:50 winter/spring, is this correct? Do you leave the land fallow over winter or grow a cover crop? If fallow, do you cultivate or leave as stubble?
 

Elmsted

Never Forgotten
Honorary Member
Location
Bucharest
Deciphering what you said, you grow two winter crops, two spring crops and one crop split 50:50 winter/spring, is this correct? Do you leave the land fallow over winter or grow a cover crop? If fallow, do you cultivate or leave as stubble?

The two winter crops are wheat and rape. The spring crops are Maize, sunflower, soya.Do not need a cover crop as volenteers and weeds provide 100% ground cover. Never have fallow just leave land as is. Some sheep turn up and graze it maybe, fine re-cycles nutrients. The split bit of cropping you refer to is sometimes the winter crop do not grow or survive until spring so then replace with spring rape or spring cereal or Soffranel.
Thats like puting a chip on two numbers border. Reduced payout by 50%. But heck sure you lernt summit in vegas in haf a day.
 

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