Rouge or Charollais

[Skintagain]

Had a small Beltex tup which only cost £300 and he was great with hoggs. Small but vigorous lambs so you had a bit of room to sort out legs back etc. Unfortunately he only lasted 2 seasons ☹

Bought another Beltex this time who is a bit bigger and also a Charrolais cross Beltex. Had loads more lambing problems this time often caused by the lambs having longer legs and so more difficult to correct when back.

Temperament wise the Charrolais Cross tup is mental. The b**gger chinned me when we were dipping last autumn!. Have 2 Charrolais Cross Beltex ewes and they are also mental compared to our mostly Texel crosses.

I'm to old and life's to short to waste time with mental sheep so I wouldn't have anything with Charrolais blood again.

It's noticeable round here that you see very few Charrolais anymore, most people use Texel or Beltex or a cross between the two

I think a mix is necessary. Charley lambs suit better ground imo. They need it to achieve their growth.

beltex and texel for more marginal land as they take more time so don’t need as much going into them.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

I think a mix is necessary. Charley lambs suit better ground imo. They need it to achieve their growth.

beltex and texel for more marginal land as they take more time so don’t need as much going into them.

I think that's probably right, there is such a huge difference in farms in this country that a one size fits all approach doesn't work.

 

[andybk]

Charollais has some huge growth rates , have rams here that regularly do over 500gpd on strong singles , that requires very milky ewes and good feeding , Charollais ewes arnt nessesarily poor milkers its just not enough to feed hungry lambs with genetic potential for big growth rates , lambs basically outstrip supply . and there is incredible variation across the breed . I only worry if ET is stopped for whatever reason (animal rights etc) we will have a breed thats unable to feed/ lamb its self at all that goes same for beltex and texel .

 

[Agrivator]

The better sheep producing areas?! You do talk some shite at times. You mean where there is more marginal ground only fit for sheep?

I used beltex for 10 years on our ewe lambs. Good lambs, odd one took a lot of pulling but that’s the same with everything. I just got sick too death of buying beltex tups every single year! You will now say “well you obviously weren’t buying the right ones” fair enough. I kept trying different suppliers but the beltex tups all did the same thing in the end. Only managed too get 2 through too brokers and sold them. Eventually I found a supplier with tups that lived. But after a couple of years others found him too and his tups went from £3/400 too £800-£1200 and I’m not spending that on ewe lamb tups end of.

That’s why some of us are trying the rouge and the charly again. Just because we don’t do “what everyone else does” doesn’t mean we are wrong. Just means we are sick of the norm!

Thinking like that we would all still be farming big headed gormless Suffolk’s...

I agree about their longevity. But Beltex cross lambs have three major benefits.
They weigh much heavier than they look, they have one of the highest dressing percentages, and they make a significant premium deadweight and an even higher premium when sold live.

But unlike the Suffolk, they don't make ideal crosses for breeding.

And anyone who is tupping ewe lambs should pay more attention - for welfare reasons- to the type of tup used than for any other class of sheep.

 

[M-J-G]

Charollais has some huge growth rates , have rams here that regularly do over 500gpd on strong singles , that requires very milky ewes and good feeding , Charollais ewes arnt nessesarily poor milkers its just not enough to feed hungry lambs with genetic potential for big growth rates , lambs basically outstrip supply . and there is incredible variation across the breed . I only worry if ET is stopped for whatever reason (animal rights etc) we will have a breed thats unable to feed/ lamb its self at all that goes same for beltex and texel .

But plenty of other breeds of ewe can fuel Char lambs.
I have a mate who put Char to some of his pure texel ewes and they rear them fine.
Texel can milk ok if you can stop their udders from falling off.

 

[andybk]

But plenty of other breeds of ewe can fuel Char lambs.
I have a mate who put Char to some of his pure texel ewes and they rear them fine.
Texel can milk ok if you can stop their udders from falling off.

yes agree exactly point i was making as a terminal they are fine , a slow growing lamb on a char ewe works ok , have a few customers that do char ewe to beltex ram and dont have an issue .

 

[M-J-G]

yes agree exactly point i was making as a terminal they are fine , a slow growing lamb on a char ewe works ok , have a few customers that do char ewe to beltex ram and dont have an issue .

Keeping that size of ewe to produce a slow growing lamb isn't something I'd like to do.
Medium sized ewes that milk well enough to rear a faster growing lambs makes more sense to me.
Big ewes are just too much hassle for me to be bothered with.
We have a few Zwartbles and some cross daughters and they are just too big and the clippers hate them.
That's before you consider the space they take up in a trailer or a shed and how much they eat.

 

[andybk]

Keeping that size of ewe to produce a slow growing lamb isn't something I'd like to do.
Medium sized ewes that milk well enough to rear a faster growing lambs makes more sense to me.
Big ewes are just too much hassle for me to be bothered with.
We have a few Zwartbles and some cross daughters and they are just too big and the clippers hate them.
That's before you consider the space they take up in a trailer or a shed and how much they eat.

Agree , most of my charollais would be considered on smaller side for the breed , i need a low maintenance ewe due to feed available (750') , even our zwarts are a moderate size (they are getting to big , show ring nonsense and hobby breeders ) .My charollais ram buyers dont want big rams they want something quick growing that will fill out the frame of a suff x mule ewe and finish easily , so i buy blocky moderate size (120kg mature max , usually nearer 100kg ) replacement rams with good milk indexes , Once again buyers at builth and the like are driving this obsession with size , Shearers told me yesterday they shore a ch stock ram locally was 225kg , sons as shearlings were 150kg + , he does feed a shocking amount of feed though , good luck finishing offspring of those at 40kg

 

[sheepwise]

Agree , most of my charollais would be considered on smaller side for the breed , i need a low maintenance ewe due to feed available (750') , even our zwarts are a moderate size (they are getting to big , show ring nonsense and hobby breeders ) .My charollais ram buyers dont want big rams they want something quick growing that will fill out the frame of a suff x mule ewe and finish easily , so i buy blocky moderate size (120kg mature max , usually nearer 100kg ) replacement rams with good milk indexes , One again buyers at builth and the like are driving this obsession with size , Shearers told me yesterday they shore a ch stock ram locally was 225kg , sons as shearlings were 150kg + , he does feed a shocking amount of feed though , good luck finishing offspring of those at 40kg

But not everyone is working with big hungry Suffolk ewes. Better with a smaller ewe put to an easy lambed growthy tup which can milk her lambs to nearer her own weight. Same as the suckler cow job really.

 

[andybk]

But not everyone is working with big hungry Suffolk ewes. Better with a smaller ewe put to an easy lambed growthy tup which can milk her lambs to nearer her own weight. Same as the suckler cow job really.

maybe , but everyone around me has suff mules , i would say 70% of my rams are used on them ,somerset dorset wiltshire is full of them (used to be mules but since the arable boys dont bring them south any more very few about ) the rest lleyn x texel or mashams and few dorset and crosses ,I can only breed what they want, as i sell from farm gate . many times i have tried bigger rams and they get left till end of season or i get the expense of feeding them for sales (not my selling point ) , the smaller blocky with some length and easy finish ,always go first (bit like Geraint used to sell at builth before he flirted with highland fling )

 

[M-J-G]

Agree , most of my charollais would be considered on smaller side for the breed , i need a low maintenance ewe due to feed available (750') , even our zwarts are a moderate size (they are getting to big , show ring nonsense and hobby breeders ) .My charollais ram buyers dont want big rams they want something quick growing that will fill out the frame of a suff x mule ewe and finish easily , so i buy blocky moderate size (120kg mature max , usually nearer 100kg ) replacement rams with good milk indexes , One again buyers at builth and the like are driving this obsession with size , Shearers told me yesterday they shore a ch stock ram locally was 225kg , sons as shearlings were 150kg + , he does feed a shocking amount of feed though , good luck finishing offspring of those at 40kg

A Suffolk Mule is some donkey of a ewe to keep for producing 40kg lambs.
I'd prefer to keep a few larger rams than keeping a flock of massive ewes.

 

[M-J-G]

But not everyone is working with big hungry Suffolk ewes. Better with a smaller ewe put to an easy lambed growthy tup which can milk her lambs to nearer her own weight. Same as the suckler cow job really.

The suckler cow is a bit different IMO, finished cattle are closer to mature weight whereas a finished lamb is not much more than half and in some cases a third.

Getting 550kg cow to produce a 700kg finished animal is OK, buy if you're breeding your own replacements these progeny are are too big to maintain cow size.

 

[Estate fencing.]

maybe , but everyone around me has suff mules , i would say 70% of my rams are used on them ,somerset dorset wiltshire is full of them (used to be mules but since the arable boys dont bring them south any more very few about ) the rest lleyn x texel or mashams and few dorset and crosses ,I can only breed what they want as i sell from farm gate . many times i have tried bigger rams and they get left till end of season , smaller blocky with some length and easy finish ,always go first (bit like Geraint used to sell at builth before he flirted with highland fling )

And don’t they like them Suffolk mules big. I sell a load that end up down there any they pay a massive premium for the real donkeys. I dread to think how big they get after 5 year on Somerset grass!

 

[andybk]

And don’t they like them Suffolk mules big. I sell a load that end up down there any they pay a massive premium for the real donkeys. I dread to think how big they get after 5 year on Somerset grass!

a lot are on dairy farms not huge flocks just to clean up after cows maybe 100 or 2 , good clean grass , lamb feb a lot finished and gone by summer , the charollais stores from any left make a good premium at autumn sales ,(a lot of my customers top wilton , frome and sedge regularly , good demand ) almost a perfect store lamb for sw buyers, Look at cull value of ewe very little depreciation as well ,
I could sell 1000s good suff mule lambs and 2t , hardest part is finding genuine suffolks to use for that female cross , i get asked by everyone with straight mules where to go for rams ,
Anyone want to start a flock of suffolks that are a bit more english type for females, and are not dopy in the bag types at birth , grown hard that can stand grazing properly , there is huge demand around here for them on mules , £4-600+

 

[bean]

a lot are on dairy farms not huge flocks just to clean up after cows maybe 100 or 2 , good clean grass , lamb feb a lot finished and gone by summer , the charollais stores from any left make a good premium at autumn sales ,(a lot of my customers top wilton , frome and sedge regularly , good demand ) almost a perfect store lamb for sw buyers, Look at cull value of ewe very little depreciation as well ,
I could sell 1000s good suff mule lambs and 2t , hardest part is finding genuine suffolks to use for that female cross , i get asked by everyone with straight mules where to go for rams ,
Anyone want to start a flock of suffolks that are a bit more english type for females, and are not dopy in the bag types at birth , grown hard that can stand grazing properly , there is huge demand around here for them on mules , £4-600+

I have a great bunch of Suffolk shearlings to sell this year run on a mainly forage system

 

[R.Dutchman]

a lot are on dairy farms not huge flocks just to clean up after cows maybe 100 or 2 , good clean grass , lamb feb a lot finished and gone by summer , the charollais stores from any left make a good premium at autumn sales ,(a lot of my customers top wilton , frome and sedge regularly , good demand ) almost a perfect store lamb for sw buyers, Look at cull value of ewe very little depreciation as well ,
I could sell 1000s good suff mule lambs and 2t , hardest part is finding genuine suffolks to use for that female cross , i get asked by everyone with straight mules where to go for rams ,
Anyone want to start a flock of suffolks that are a bit more english type for females, and are not dopy in the bag types at birth , grown hard that can stand grazing properly , there is huge demand around here for them on mules , £4-600+

There will be plenty at Blackmoor Gate in September, I'm pleased with how my pen is looking so far!

 

[Agrivator]

The suckler cow is a bit different IMO, finished cattle are closer to mature weight whereas a finished lamb is not much more than half and in some cases a third.

Getting 550kg cow to produce a 700kg finished animal is OK, buy if you're breeding your own replacements these progeny are are too big to maintain cow size.

But a 700kg suckler cow produces about 0.92 of a calf which (on a mainly grass diet) can reach a weight of about 500kg at about 14 months. (0.92 X 500 =460kg)

A 70kg ewe can produce 1.55 lambs which can each reach 45kg (70kg in total) at about 6 months.

 

[Estate fencing.]

a lot are on dairy farms not huge flocks just to clean up after cows maybe 100 or 2 , good clean grass , lamb feb a lot finished and gone by summer , the charollais stores from any left make a good premium at autumn sales ,(a lot of my customers top wilton , frome and sedge regularly , good demand ) almost a perfect store lamb for sw buyers, Look at cull value of ewe very little depreciation as well ,
I could sell 1000s good suff mule lambs and 2t , hardest part is finding genuine suffolks to use for that female cross , i get asked by everyone with straight mules where to go for rams ,
Anyone want to start a flock of suffolks that are a bit more english type for females, and are not dopy in the bag types at birth , grown hard that can stand grazing properly , there is huge demand around here for them on mules , £4-600+

You want to try @farmer james Suffolk's, they are excellent tups. There good on there feet, don't melt and the lambs are as lively as hell when they are born and have growth rates to match any Charollais. I bought 3 2 years ago and couldn't recommend them highly enough.
Iv kept a load of ewe hoggs out of them to sell and if they don't top Cirencester market in august I will be amazed.

 

[M-J-G]

But a 700kg suckler cow produces about 0.92 of a calf which (on a mainly grass diet) can reach a weight of about 500kg at about 14 months. (0.92 X 500 =460kg)

A 70kg ewe can produce 1.55 lambs which can each reach 45kg (70kg in total) at about 6 months.

You've missed my point completely.

My point was not about rearing ability, it was about genetic mature size both are completely different things.

 

[Agrivator]

The suckler cow is a bit different IMO, finished cattle are closer to mature weight whereas a finished lamb is not much more than half and in some cases a third.

Getting 550kg cow to produce a 700kg finished animal is OK, buy if you're breeding your own replacements these progeny are are too big to maintain cow size.

But a suckler cow at 550kg is a tiny cow. Can you give an example of where such a cow can produce a finished animal at 700kg?

Do you have any actual cows?