Round Up Resistant Blackgrass

Andy Howard

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Ashford, Kent
I was listening to Dick Neale speak last night about Black grass strategies and his experiences at Brampton. He was promoting Cousin's new Surface cultivator and using multiple applications of glyphosate along with rolling and raking to get as much BG emerged before the crop is drilled. This year I have been having the discussion with my father that I do not want to use round up more than once in a cropping season as it will lead to resistance. While listening to Dick speak I was ready to ask the question about multiply glyphosate applications and resistance when he put up a slide showing BG that had not been killed by Glyphosate and he said he had put another dose on at a higher rate and it was checking it. Is this the first signs of round up resistance in BG in the UK? Is anyone on here going to admit they have seen anything similar? I think this could be the next big story in the next couple of years. There could be a lot of cheap grazing soon as fields get grassed down!!
 
Yes! It will definitely start to kick in of course, nature evolves to survive!

It is about time more people adopted a sensible rotation with more spring cropping, cover crops and maybe some grass leys 2 years in 10.
 
On the flipside if you speak to someone like @Dockers he says he will use 3-4 robust sprays of roundup per year in his fallow period and he doesn't think its an issue.

They have a stewardship programme in the states called 1-2-1 or something - no more than 1 crop, 2 doses once a season or something like that.

Why didn't you challenge Mr Neale on the cousins cultivator (for you can prove you don't need to cultivate to grow a crop) and ask him why he is encouraging this low rate multiple dose thing?
 

Badshot

Member
Location
Kent


And Mr Neal wasn't using robust rates, or at least I don't think he was as he said he put 3 litres on in the end which stopped it but still didn't kill it, no seed heads though. I have had the Hutchinsons rep for the area round this year telling me that multiple low doses of glyphosate is the way ahead.

My prediction is that in 5 years or less we will read that the surface cultivator is still too deep, and anyway what they are advocating is simply the scratch and drill that vaderstad intended for the carrier and rapid all those years ago.
 

Tractor Boy

Member
Location
Suffolk
Yes! It will definitely start to kick in of course, nature evolves to survive!

It is about time more people adopted a sensible rotation with more spring cropping, cover crops and maybe some grass leys 2 years in 10.
I understand the reason for rotation, but there is a fundamental flaw. Last time I looked humans don't eat grass! There is also only so much beer and whisky you can drink. Linseed is not widely used as a food stuff, people won't eat field beans in this country, and oilseed rape is only useful for frying or dressings(not eating in large quantities). How do we feed ourselves, let alone the world with less wheat in the rotation? Don't say spring wheat as that automatically puts a cap on yield output even in suitable years.
 
I understand the reason for rotation, but there is a fundamental flaw. Last time I looked humans don't eat grass! There is also only so much beer and whisky you can drink. Linseed is not widely used as a food stuff, people won't eat field beans in this country, and oilseed rape is only useful for frying or dressings(not eating in large quantities). How do we feed ourselves, let alone the world with less wheat in the rotation? Don't say spring wheat as that automatically puts a cap on yield output even in suitable years.

Humans don't eat grass but cows and sheep do which turns it into food that humans can eat. What is wrong with spring oats, spring peas, spring osr? I know spring osr is not as good but people are complaining about blackgrass and issues with WOSR so the spring version is an alternative.

Is there not a few people who got around 3 tonne to the acre from their spring wheat with A LOT less inputs?
 

Tractor Boy

Member
Location
Suffolk
Humans don't eat grass but cows and sheep do which turns it into food that humans can eat. What is wrong with spring oats, spring peas, spring osr? I know spring osr is not as good but people are complaining about blackgrass and issues with WOSR so the spring version is an alternative.

Is there not a few people who got around 3 tonne to the acre from their spring wheat with A LOT less inputs?
Yes animals do eat grass, but animal production is an inefficient way of producing food. There is not enough land in the world if the entire population was on a meat based diet. I get your point on spring OSR but spring oats and peas are very small niche markets.

As for spring wheat people are making rash statements on one years cropping. I know varieties improve and establishment methods change but spring wheat died out years ago for a reason. We were very lucky last spring that after all the wet although the spring was cold it was dry!
 

B'o'B

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Rutland
Yes animals do eat grass, but animal production is an inefficient way of producing food. There is not enough land in the world if the entire population was on a meat based diet. I get your point on spring OSR but spring oats and peas are very small niche markets.

As for spring wheat people are making rash statements on one years cropping. I know varieties improve and establishment methods change but spring wheat died out years ago for a reason. We were very lucky last spring that after all the wet although the spring was cold it was dry!

The vast majority of the wheat grown now is not eaten by humans, it is animal feed.
 

Robigus

Member
Yes animals do eat grass, but animal production is an inefficient way of producing food. There is not enough land in the world if the entire population was on a meat based diet. I get your point on spring OSR but spring oats and peas are very small niche markets.

As for spring wheat people are making rash statements on one years cropping. I know varieties improve and establishment methods change but spring wheat died out years ago for a reason. We were very lucky last spring that after all the wet although the spring was cold it was dry!

The flaw to this argument is that in reality we do not need to be any more efficient in our food production (as opposed to crop production.) We do not produce food for the starving of the world but for those that can afford it, and they choose to eat meat for a variety of reasons.
Tesco announced today the alarming percentage of processed food that they throw away. The consumer that we produce for is the Tesco customer. The buyer for the starving is the government aid program or the NGO, not the poor person who is starving. And they are probably starving because of political strife not because of farm gate prices.

As to the misuse of glyphosate, I think it is a major problem. We know exactly how to select plants that are not susceptible to an active ingredient and this is precisely what we are doing. Repeated low rate doses throughout the rotation can only lead to resistance, there is no other outcome.
 
The vast majority of the wheat grown now is not eaten by humans, it is animal feed.

Exactly, and grass is a more environmentally and economically efficient way to rear it than growing wheat. In addition, a grass ley incorporated within a rotation will improve the yields of the crops grown for human consumption whilst reducing costs. too many arable farmers are so short sighted with this!
 

ianw

Member
Location
east yorkshire
Exactly, and grass is a more environmentally and economically efficient way to rear it than growing wheat. In addition, a grass ley incorporated within a rotation will improve the yields of the crops grown for human consumption whilst reducing costs. too many arable farmers are so short sighted with this!
Granted some are probably short sighted but what use is a rotation when increasingly land is let on 3 and 5 year fbt's?that's a situation I can't see going away in the near future so you tend to grow rape/wheat as its the safest financial option,
 

Steevo

Member
Location
Gloucestershire
And Mr Neal wasn't using robust rates, or at least I don't think he was as he said he put 3 litres on in the end which stopped it but still didn't kill it, no seed heads though. I have had the Hutchinsons rep for the area round this year telling me that multiple low doses of glyphosate is the way ahead.

I think therein lies the issue. For a chemical distributor to advocate such things with a low price chemical isn't very clever. Strob, SDHI resistance etc. all have come from using too low a dose, and the manufacturers keep telling us to stick to a robust dose or else risk losing them. Given the price of glyphosate also, there is no excuse for using low doses.
 
Granted some are probably short sighted but what use is a rotation when increasingly land is let on 3 and 5 year fbt's?that's a situation I can't see going away in the near future so you tend to grow rape/wheat as its the safest financial option,

Can't argue with that, these short term tenancies are stupid!
 
I think therein lies the issue. For a chemical distributor to advocate such things with a low price chemical isn't very clever. Strob, SDHI resistance etc. all have come from using too low a dose, and the manufacturers keep telling us to stick to a robust dose or else risk losing them. Given the price of glyphosate also, there is no excuse for using low doses.

One hit of glyphosate per year max should be all that is allowed! It is a useful tool but the way people are using it is destroying its efficacy!
 

Tractor Boy

Member
Location
Suffolk
Exactly, and grass is a more environmentally and economically efficient way to rear it than growing wheat. In addition, a grass ley incorporated within a rotation will improve the yields of the crops grown for human consumption whilst reducing costs. too many arable farmers are so short sighted with this!
Sorry. Still disagree. Grass can't be grown efficiently in East Anglia. It would be brown not green, due to lack of rain. Livestock can't be kept on clay soil! Look what the public thought about permanently housed animals when the issue of super dairies came up. Wouldn't it be a logistical nightmare to grow silage to cart to the SW or NW?
 
Sorry. Still disagree. Grass can't be grown efficiently in East Anglia. It would be brown not green, due to lack of rain. Livestock can't be kept on clay soil! Look what the public thought about permanently housed animals when the issue of super dairies came up. Wouldn't it be a logistical nightmare to grow silage to cart to the SW or NW?

You get more rainfall than the midwest USA and there are ranchers out there growing lots of grass! Do you have no lawn then if you can't grow grass, also what about lucerne, red clover, cocksfoot and other deep rooting plants?

I suspect you will pull out any excuse as to why you can't employ a proper rotation etc. such as a sore eyebrow! However, you will still be the same person struggling with blackgrass and eventually make round up useless against it.

As for livestock can't be kept on clay soil, glad you told me that as I will have to ring the auctioneer now to get him to sell a couple hundred of our cattle that have been on clay!
 

Tractor Boy

Member
Location
Suffolk
You get more rainfall than the midwest USA and there are ranchers out there growing lots of grass! Do you have no lawn then if you can't grow grass, also what about lucerne, red clover, cocksfoot and other deep rooting plants?

I suspect you will pull out any excuse as to why you can't employ a proper rotation etc. such as a sore eyebrow! However, you will still be the same person struggling with blackgrass and eventually make round up useless against it.

As for livestock can't be kept on clay soil, glad you told me that as I will have to ring the auctioneer now to get him to sell a couple hundred of our cattle that have been on clay!
Where in this thread did I say I had bad black grass and no rotation? We don't get more rain than the Midwest! We officially get less than 600mm per year which is classed as a desert! In June any sheep on my lawn would have died! We used to have sheep on our light land farm but couldn't keep them outside on heavy land after Oct due to foot rot.

Oh and by the way the majority of meat consumed in this country is white meat fed on cereals, not red meat fed on grass!!
 
Where in this thread did I say I had bad black grass and no rotation? We don't get more rain than the Midwest! We officially get less than 600mm per year which is classed as a desert! In June any sheep on my lawn would have died! We used to have sheep on our light land farm but couldn't keep them outside on heavy land after Oct due to foot rot.

Oh and by the way the majority of meat consumed in this country is white meat fed on cereals, not red meat fed on grass!!

What the majority of meat consumed is irrelevant when the country is running a deficit in beef production and thus has to import so there is a good home market for it!

600mm is 23 inches, there are ranchers in USA growing lots of forage on 12 inches of rain mob grazing. It can be done, but not by set stocking as you have too small a root mass so that is why you're lawn is burning up.
 

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