rspb hedge campaign

[Barleymow]

Hedge cutting dates is what's knackering most of the hedges!

What about garden hedges etc not fair if they aren't included

 

[beardface]

What about garden hedges etc not fair if they aren't included

There biggest issue with this, is that any legislation must cover all hedges. Pretty sure Joe public will be fairly pee'd off if they can't cut their hedges when they like.

 

[egbert]

I'll put my head above the parapet -or hedge- then.
I don't care much for some peoples (farmer people) idea of a neat hedge system.
IE, every meter flailed to within an inch of its life every year, no standards (and it's not anything like a stockproof boundary either).

I would prefer that ELMs or whatever it's going to be, encouraged -at the lowest level- allowing some growth to be carried over-
and at a very much higher level, encouraged the growth and relaying on a rota of real chunks.
THAT would give employment, and wildlife benefits of a huge order.

The flip side of the coin might be that flailing with something that collects the chips for bio-mass might be pursued.

 

[BrianV]

I'll put my head above the parapet -or hedge- then.
I don't care much for some peoples (farmer people) idea of a neat hedge system.
IE, every meter flailed to within an inch of its life every year, no standards (and it's not anything like a stockproof boundary either).

I would prefer that ELMs or whatever it's going to be, encouraged -at the lowest level- allowing some growth to be carried over-
and at a very much higher level, encouraged the growth and relaying on a rota of real chunks.
THAT would give employment, and wildlife benefits of a huge order.

The flip side of the coin might be that flailing with something that collects the chips for bio-mass might be pursued.

You are obviously not a farmer, hedges that are flailed with two years growth look far far worse than hedges that are trimmed each year, by delaying the date trimming can be done the hedges do not have time to regrow before winter sets in, if we were again able to start to trim in late July the hedges would green up before growth stopped.
All these stupid rules have exactly the opposite outcome than is intended.

 

[AndrewM]

What about garden hedges etc not fair if they aren't included

Yes, I'm not sure how they would do that. Hopefully this will be one way to put the government off.

 

[Bury the Trash]

You are obviously not a farmer, hedges that are flailed with two years growth look far far worse than hedges that are trimmed each year, by delaying the date trimming can be done the hedges do not have time to regrow before winter sets in, if we were again able to start to trim in late July the hedges would green up before growth stopped.
All these stupid rules have exactly the opposite outcome than is intended.

He is a Farmer and he has a good point.

sounds to me that your hedge management experience is quite narrow

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Ain't wrong there. Remember how quickly they backtracked on their "cats kill millions of birds" statement as soon as they twigged that upsetting Doris the elderly crazy cat lady and her friends would mean a significant drop in the amount of donations they'd be getting?

best thing we could do for birds is what I read in a headline (never read the article), Australian state says all cats have to be on a lead when not in the house.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

You are obviously not a farmer, hedges that are flailed with two years growth look far far worse than hedges that are trimmed each year, by delaying the date trimming can be done the hedges do not have time to regrow before winter sets in, if we were again able to start to trim in late July the hedges would green up before growth stopped.
All these stupid rules have exactly the opposite outcome than is intended.

personally I agree with @egbert , we have a culture in the UK, that is far too sanitised and "tidy", nature looks a mess and we need to let it look like that, instead of continually trying to make everything look like a manicured garden, nature - dead ewe, let raptors etc eat it, dead tree, let it rot in hedge, but our culture and legislation makes us tidy it all up.

 

[teslacoils]

Worry not, for surely the NFU have your backs*!

*Or is it BACS?

 

[egbert]

You are obviously not a farmer, hedges that are flailed with two years growth look far far worse than hedges that are trimmed each year, by delaying the date trimming can be done the hedges do not have time to regrow before winter sets in, if we were again able to start to trim in late July the hedges would green up before growth stopped.
All these stupid rules have exactly the opposite outcome than is intended.

I couldn't comment whether I would pass your test....I spent about half of my work-time on in house agri-operations.
Currently grazing 230 odd head of bovines, 350 ewes plus followers, and 20 equines, over about 2000 acres.
I'll admit i have pretty much zero hedges on the main farm (1500 acres of granite walls)
But 'off land' includes lots of hedges, some 'flailed to death', some less so. Some on roughly every other year.

I've laid overgrown hedge into stockproof condition (and my stock includes some who'd really test it),
but concede that the time commitment is crippling, and still gives rise to the question 'what next?'
Flail for 5-10 years, then start the cycle again?
In recent decades, I've been double fencing to keep them from being eaten out/trashed, but the cost of that is pretty sharp.
Personally, I'm at an imp arse.
My boy is wanting to learn to steep hedge, and I'm likely going to fund his efforts when he's off a mind.

Looking around local lowlands, some farmers are slowly grinding their hedges to nothing but a bramble covered linear bank, devoid of anything much wildlife wise.
And while I'm no twitcher or bug hunter, on due consideration, I find the idea of flailing every stick of hedge to nothing while the fruit is still uneaten pretty offensive.
It is surely that attitude that leads to our continued demonisation. And quite deservedly.

I posted as we need to find a way forward, and I consider it's going to be taken out of our hands if we're not careful.

 

[An Gof]

I'll put my head above the parapet -or hedge- then.
I don't care much for some peoples (farmer people) idea of a neat hedge system.
IE, every meter flailed to within an inch of its life every year, no standards (and it's not anything like a stockproof boundary either).

I would prefer that ELMs or whatever it's going to be, encouraged -at the lowest level- allowing some growth to be carried over-
and at a very much higher level, encouraged the growth and relaying on a rota of real chunks.
THAT would give employment, and wildlife benefits of a huge order.

The flip side of the coin might be that flailing with something that collects the chips for bio-mass might be pursued.

You wouldn’t like my hedges then. All trimmed properly every year. It’s the best way to go to keep them tidy and ensure they stay tight and not get gappy thereby improving stock keeping ability. Two year trimming is a nightmare here. It’s ok for you moorland types to say let it go you boys don’t try combining and cultivating around the headlands.
Im afraid it is very much a case of one size doesn’t fit all and that’s the danger with broad based legislation.
Let’s agree to disagree, we’ll keep the moors looking rough and ready, unkempt if you like. But down here onntje better ground I will make sure the hedges are well trimmed

 

[egbert]

You wouldn’t like my hedges then. All trimmed properly every year. It’s the best way to go to keep them tidy and ensure they stay tight and not get gappy thereby improving stock keeping ability. Two year trimming is a nightmare here. It’s ok for you moorland types to say let it go you boys don’t try combining and cultivating around the headlands.
Im afraid it is very much a case of one size doesn’t fit all and that’s the danger with broad based legislation.
Let’s agree to disagree, we’ll keep the moors looking rough and ready, unkempt if you like. But down here onntje better ground I will make sure the hedges are well trimmed

Beauty is in the eye old chap!
(else I'd never have found a wifelet)

Would you take the Queens shilling to look again?

 

[An Gof]

Beauty is in the eye old chap!
(else I'd never have found a wifelet)

Would you take the Queens shilling to look again?

No, nothing would persuade me to go to biannual trimming. I’m not that desperate for a shilling

I could show you a neighbouring farm where they are more “enlightened” than me and it’s an absolute mess and eyesore. However they do seem to have more in common with church mice so it may be a necessity.

 

[egbert]

No, nothing would persuade me to go to biannual trimming. I’m not that desperate for a shilling

I could show you a neighbouring farm where they are more “enlightened” than me and it’s an absolute mess and eyesore. However they do seem to have more in common with church mice so it may be a necessity.

OK
Instead of bi-annual, leave a percentage to grow for 3-4-8 years (whatever) then steep, then flail annually.
A working rotation round the farm, paying someones wage through the winter.
And/or the retention of standards* for a defined payment?

*one of the very first oaks i milled was a windthrow out of a hedge in that 1990 storm. Today, I would readily pay upwards of a grand for the same tree again.

(you know very well I'm merely postulating solutions to what some perceive as a problem.....IE collapses in ecosystems. I'm not lecturing or winding you up)
(and we'll both wager that this manner of discussion will probably be fudging miles off what will come along)

 

[TheTallGuy]

You'll find the bits of tightly kept hedges of mine are often full of small birds, the less managed bits only house winged rats.

 

[BrianV]

I couldn't comment whether I would pass your test....I spent about half of my work-time on in house agri-operations.
Currently grazing 230 odd head of bovines, 350 ewes plus followers, and 20 equines, over about 2000 acres.
I'll admit i have pretty much zero hedges on the main farm (1500 acres of granite walls)
But 'off land' includes lots of hedges, some 'flailed to death', some less so. Some on roughly every other year.

I've laid overgrown hedge into stockproof condition (and my stock includes some who'd really test it),
but concede that the time commitment is crippling, and still gives rise to the question 'what next?'
Flail for 5-10 years, then start the cycle again?
In recent decades, I've been double fencing to keep them from being eaten out/trashed, but the cost of that is pretty sharp.
Personally, I'm at an imp arse.
My boy is wanting to learn to steep hedge, and I'm likely going to fund his efforts when he's off a mind.

Looking around local lowlands, some farmers are slowly grinding their hedges to nothing but a bramble covered linear bank, devoid of anything much wildlife wise.
And while I'm no twitcher or bug hunter, on due consideration, I find the idea of flailing every stick of hedge to nothing while the fruit is still uneaten pretty offensive.
It is surely that attitude that leads to our continued demonisation. And quite deservedly.

I posted as we need to find a way forward, and I consider it's going to be taken out of our hands if we're not careful.

Think it's a case of horses for courses, here in Devon 700 acre farm average size of field around 5 acres, over the years we have double fenced all the Devon bank hedges & lightly flail to keep manageable as early as possible ( obviously within the stupid rules who wouldn't). Tall overgrown hedges only seem to provide nesting for the birds you don't want as lower down the hedge tends to die out with no protection for the little fellas.

 

[egbert]

Think it's a case of horses for courses, here in Devon 700 acre farm average size of field around 5 acres, over the years we have double fenced all the Devon bank hedges & lightly flail to keep manageable as early as possible ( obviously within the stupid rules who wouldn't). Tall overgrown hedges only seem to provide nesting for the birds you don't want as lower down the hedge tends to die out with no protection for the little fellas.

I am in Devon

 

[BrianV]

I am in Devon

Then obviously not many nesting birds in all those granite walls, you really need to get out more off the high country wilderness.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

I couldn't comment whether I would pass your test....I spent about half of my work-time on in house agri-operations.
Currently grazing 230 odd head of bovines, 350 ewes plus followers, and 20 equines, over about 2000 acres.
I'll admit i have pretty much zero hedges on the main farm (1500 acres of granite walls)
But 'off land' includes lots of hedges, some 'flailed to death', some less so. Some on roughly every other year.

I've laid overgrown hedge into stockproof condition (and my stock includes some who'd really test it),
but concede that the time commitment is crippling, and still gives rise to the question 'what next?'
Flail for 5-10 years, then start the cycle again?
In recent decades, I've been double fencing to keep them from being eaten out/trashed, but the cost of that is pretty sharp.
Personally, I'm at an imp arse.
My boy is wanting to learn to steep hedge, and I'm likely going to fund his efforts when he's off a mind.

Looking around local lowlands, some farmers are slowly grinding their hedges to nothing but a bramble covered linear bank, devoid of anything much wildlife wise.
And while I'm no twitcher or bug hunter, on due consideration, I find the idea of flailing every stick of hedge to nothing while the fruit is still uneaten pretty offensive.
It is surely that attitude that leads to our continued demonisation. And quite deservedly.

I posted as we need to find a way forward, and I consider it's going to be taken out of our hands if we're not careful.

I can not get over how much work/costs to laying an old hedge. Hedge here that should have been laid 25 years ago, took a hedge layer 6 days (150 yards), with me spending the same amount of time moving the stuff he cut out of the hedge, another week plus logging the wood and burning the rubbish, plus fencing. I think it cost about £10 a yard on top of the grant! Mind you I have got about 50 big bags of logs, plus another heap still to log up!

 

[Ffermer Bach]

You wouldn’t like my hedges then. All trimmed properly every year. It’s the best way to go to keep them tidy and ensure they stay tight and not get gappy thereby improving stock keeping ability. Two year trimming is a nightmare here. It’s ok for you moorland types to say let it go you boys don’t try combining and cultivating around the headlands.
Im afraid it is very much a case of one size doesn’t fit all and that’s the danger with broad based legislation.
Let’s agree to disagree, we’ll keep the moors looking rough and ready, unkempt if you like. But down here onntje better ground I will make sure the hedges are well trimmed

Hedges are not a static system, their management needs to be dynamic and changing if they are to remain sustainable. Trimming regularly (but at a slightly higher height each year to stop "knuckles" forming), then eventually letting grow up with a view to coppicing or laying to restart the process.

https://ptes.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Hedge-structure-photos-with-descriptions.pdf

https://ptes.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Hedgerow-guide-web-version.pdf