RT Outers - Divert Your Eyes

digger64

Member
I think that many farmers don't realise [ or wilfully ignore] that virtually every premium or bonus offered is actually just a reason to pay others less, and ultimately limit the price for everyone.
This is so true , even in the cattle market with those fancy cattle means something has to be nicked earlier or later on to get the average right .
 

Cowmansam

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Shropshire
I think it is time the retailers and big brand names came out and actually declared what they want!!

RT has mudded the waters and placed themselves as the go to in-between guy, and really they have done it so badly and lined their pockets along the way.

If the retailers and big brand names where allowed to interact without the interference of RT to growers and producers and set their own standards, I think the market would be a different place than it is today.

If you don't like or don't want to produce to Asda's standards... produce for someone else then.

The "Edge" for the retailers is one up man ship on the competition, that approach will not suit every farmer but as long as there is an incentive in it i.e. a premium for the one's that do decide to go down that route.

But it only works if that premium is guaranteed.
They do it’s how dairy contracts work but they still get the red tractor wallers to come and do some of the leg work
 
I think it is time the retailers and big brand names came out and actually declared what they want!!

RT has mudded the waters and placed themselves as the go to in-between guy, and really they have done it so badly and lined their pockets along the way.

If the retailers and big brand names where allowed to interact without the interference of RT to growers and producers and set their own standards, I think the market would be a different place than it is today.

If you don't like or don't want to produce to Asda's standards... produce for someone else then.

The "Edge" for the retailers is one up man ship on the competition, that approach will not suit every farmer but as long as there is an incentive in it i.e. a premium for the one's that do decide to go down that route.

But it only works if that premium is guaranteed.

The brand names and retailers have done this already. Many of them offer more money for your product if you agree to meet their own scheme or those offered by another provider. Waitrose, Tesco, Sainsburys etc all have numerous schemes in place for which they will pay you more money. If you want to continue down the commodity pipeline then you stick with Red tractor alone.
 

Luke Cropwalker

Member
Arable Farmer
It appear that RT is not really offering anything to anyone. The retailers want their own brand of assurance to give some sort of unique selling point in a very crowded market. That leaves commodity supply, competing with virtually non-assured imports. RT seems to have become too self-important and is desperate to cling to some sort of position, backed up by the NFU. If RT can't offer value to farmers then it should fold, or at least just be on a par with commodity imports. I have no issue with almost any level of on farm assurance as long as the majority of any retail premium gets back onto farm, this is not happening currently. RT really need to give farmers a reason to continue, currently I don't see such a reason.
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
I think it is time the retailers and big brand names came out and actually declared what they want!!

RT has mudded the waters and placed themselves as the go to in-between guy, and really they have done it so badly and lined their pockets along the way.

If the retailers and big brand names where allowed to interact without the interference of RT to growers and producers and set their own standards, I think the market would be a different place than it is today.

If you don't like or don't want to produce to Asda's standards... produce for someone else then.

The "Edge" for the retailers is one up man ship on the competition, that approach will not suit every farmer but as long as there is an incentive in it i.e. a premium for the one's that do decide to go down that route.

But it only works if that premium is guaranteed.

Excellent. You are nearly there!

Imagine RT basic was free to the farmer, thanks to the contribution from AHDB.
No retailer could refuse to accept this produce.
RT then have silver, gold, platinum etc levels all with different standards and costs but with set premiums.
What would the supermarkets actually pay for?

Must of us will happily jump through hoops for a just reward.

Currently RT undermine the whole thing by offering to make us do more for free.
 

Jackov Altraids

Member
Livestock Farmer
Location
Devon
Aye but when everyone jumps in nobody gets anything extra

That has always been their strategy.
This is why there needs to be an open market with open pricing between standards with the ability to move up and down with the vagaries of supply and demand.
It's amazing how so many proponents of free markets don't actually want free markets.
 

BrianV

Member
Mixed Farmer
Location
Dartmoor
Surely as in all walks of life all we require is a level playing field, if we are to be saddled with RT's ever expanding rules & regulations then imports sold by supermarkets controlling RT must be forced to ensure that imports meet the very same standards.
Unfortunately we have a government who don't really give a damm, they make all the right noises when they want your votes then renege on those promises once in power!
As for George Eustace, Cornwall have a lot to be embarrassed about!
 
The brand names and retailers have done this already. Many of them offer more money for your product if you agree to meet their own scheme or those offered by another provider. Waitrose, Tesco, Sainsburys etc all have numerous schemes in place for which they will pay you more money. If you want to continue down the commodity pipeline then you stick with Red tractor alone.

Oh I know, And I am part of a few of them but what is an unknown is what part RT play in their decision making, do they just go with the flow and accept some of the BS that RT make up with.
I wonder would waitrose own standards really care if I have an emergency plan in place, "In the event of a fire - Call 999" well duh!!

IMO the retailers need even more input into what those standards are and if they are prepared to give a premium to those who are prepared to go the extra mile, Every little helps.

But you know what, it could work the other way as well.. they could actually lower standards and forget the BS for farmers that just want to farm!

I totally get what Clive, Grass & Grain etc are campaigning against.. they have been sold down the river into an unfair market with their milling wheat and getting nothing extra for it.
 

DrWazzock

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Lincolnshire
As a feed wheat and barley grower how can any supermarket shopper possibly have any meaningful "product life story" from my farm to their fork, especially when my product usually has to exit and animals arse before it's actually achieved its purpose in life? That's the insanity of trying to fit a standard that might be OK for veg or salads products that arrive in the shop in the same state as they leave the farm, to bulk commodities that undergo many more processes and are only secondary to the final product.
I don't produce food for people. I produce a raw material in bulk for the livestock sector. Yes it should meet basic standards of hygiene as we don't want disease tranferring into livestock units but it isn't really a story of any interest to Charlotte and Sharon.
Similar really for sugar beet. It leaves the farm lathered in grit and clay in a dirty great lorry, is mixed with everybody else's beet from across the region. Its a bulk commodity, there is no traceability once it reaches the factory, no farm to fork story. Bulk raw material, not dainty artisan product. I am not going to start hand washing them and wrapping them in brown paper. There is no meaningful premium to be had. About all I can say is I have complied with fertiliser and pesticide rules in the production of the crop. Big deal. You'd expect that anyway. It's the legal minimum.
 

theboytheboy

Member
Arable Farmer
Location
Portsmouth
So it's became very clear to me that there is 2 reasons why farmers don't like RT and assurance schemes-
1) They don't like the compliance and paperwork - Understandable it's not for everybody and it doesn't make you a better farmer.
2) Their not getting bang for their buck via premiums- Totally understandable as well.

But what if.. your a bit of a punter/gambler like myself and think.. "There could be opportunity in this"

And what I mean is that you put yourself out there and RT/Supermarkets/Buyers approach and tell you what level of compliance they require but the condition is that they will be paying a fair price for it.

I get the argument that ^^^ is probably what RT should already be doing but they aren't.

I mean if some company wants to offer me 50p per kilo extra for high level of compliance.. sign me up

Getting paid for gold plated compliance....I think this might give some of my elders déjà vu......
 
So it's became very clear to me that there is 2 reasons why farmers don't like RT and assurance schemes-
1) They don't like the compliance and paperwork - Understandable it's not for everybody and it doesn't make you a better farmer.
2) Their not getting bang for their buck via premiums- Totally understandable as well.

But what if.. your a bit of a punter/gambler like myself and think.. "There could be opportunity in this"

And what I mean is that you put yourself out there and RT/Supermarkets/Buyers approach and tell you what level of compliance they require but the condition is that they will be paying a fair price for it.

I get the argument that ^^^ is probably what RT should already be doing but they aren't.

I mean if some company wants to offer me 50p per kilo extra for high level of compliance.. sign me up


Do you ACTUALLY farm ?

We recently had the payment advice from the sale of our cereals. We had to pay insurance out of our payment that the buyer doesn't go pop. We get charged for weighbridge. Charged for transport. Charged for moisture. Charged for trash content.

We don't get the opportunity to "Charge" anything in return.

Wake up to reality.
 
I think it is time the retailers and big brand names came out and actually declared what they want!!

RT has mudded the waters and placed themselves as the go to in-between guy, and really they have done it so badly and lined their pockets along the way.

If the retailers and big brand names where allowed to interact without the interference of RT to growers and producers and set their own standards, I think the market would be a different place than it is today.

If you don't like or don't want to produce to Asda's standards... produce for someone else then.

The "Edge" for the retailers is one up man ship on the competition, that approach will not suit every farmer but as long as there is an incentive in it i.e. a premium for the one's that do decide to go down that route.

But it only works if that premium is guaranteed.


The products you see on the shelves with "ASDA" or "TESCO" are made in similar if not the same factories. They use the same machinery but with different packaging. You even get a "Brand" which have no factories at all, they use the same places as Tesco etc. So for example "Del Monte" doesn't have any factories. It choses a manufacturer of tinned produce and uses them. They are just a PR firm.
 
The products you see on the shelves with "ASDA" or "TESCO" are made in similar if not the same factories. They use the same machinery but with different packaging. You even get a "Brand" which have no factories at all, they use the same places as Tesco etc. So for example "Del Monte" doesn't have any factories. It choses a manufacturer of tinned produce and uses them. They are just a PR firm.

Next you'll be telling me the man from del monte didnt have a white suit and say yes...
 
Do you ACTUALLY farm ?

We recently had the payment advice from the sale of our cereals. We had to pay insurance out of our payment that the buyer doesn't go pop. We get charged for weighbridge. Charged for transport. Charged for moisture. Charged for trash content.

We don't get the opportunity to "Charge" anything in return.

Wake up to reality.

Yep I does daily, but I was tasked with looking after the other interests, I get all the fun paperwork parts of the farming.

I learnt at a very young age that there isn't a gun against my head in any aspects of the business, And I have listened to the same old farmers cry about the same old problems all my life.. but it's time for change, it's time for every famer to do what is necessary for their business:

1)If a farmer wants to gold plate their standards and chase a premium- Let them at it - it will be the right choice for some.
2)If a farmer wants to take a middle of the road approach on assurance - Let them at it - it will be the right choice for some.
3)If a farmer just wants to farm with no BS red tape - Let them at it - It will be the right choice for some.

There is no one size fits all, it is what is suitable/workable/achievable for your business.

IMO food stuffs have found its price, so in IMO for me to push our partnership forward.. I have to find ways to add value and that is probably by targeting the more affluent ppl of the UK by marketing a product that they will want to pay more for.
 
Oh I know, And I am part of a few of them but what is an unknown is what part RT play in their decision making, do they just go with the flow and accept some of the BS that RT make up with.
I wonder would waitrose own standards really care if I have an emergency plan in place, "In the event of a fire - Call 999" well duh!!

IMO the retailers need even more input into what those standards are and if they are prepared to give a premium to those who are prepared to go the extra mile, Every little helps.

But you know what, it could work the other way as well.. they could actually lower standards and forget the BS for farmers that just want to farm!

I totally get what Clive, Grass & Grain etc are campaigning against.. they have been sold down the river into an unfair market with their milling wheat and getting nothing extra for it.


It's obvious that Waitrose and similar are very very selective about who they want as a supplier. I can assure you that of the Waitrose suppliers I know of, none of them were mugs, chancers or messers- I would go so far to say that these farmers were the most forward thinking and innovatory I know.

Retailers ALREADY put input into these standards- they create them. Not the NFU, not farmers, not anyone else but retailers themselves. They create the scheme (at their own expense) and then use it as a powerful marketing tool. If they did not believe in their own schemes or think they could squeeze money out of it, they wouldn't bother and would instead go the red tractor/commodity/horsemeat lasagne route and peddle just about any old carp and fudge the standards. That is the road to ruin. British farmers competing with imported product is not an option for the majority. The British industry should be looking to sell a low carbon, sustainable and minimal environmental footprint product that seeks to diverge from the commodity markets and sell to a consumer who is becoming a lot more environmentally aware. Red tractor is not that vehicle. It is not worthwhile intellectual property, it has no market presence and it creates no premium or upsell for retailers nor farmers. It is nothing but an NFU tax on the industry really and creates no value added at any point that I can see.

If you want to continue peddling RT product into a market saturated by Irish beef, Polish pork and the like, go you ahead but those days are rapidly drawing to a close. All RT constitutes is another load of straw on the camels back of the industry that means nothing.
 
The British industry should be looking to sell a low carbon, sustainable and minimal environmental footprint product that seeks to diverge from the commodity markets and sell to a consumer who is becoming a lot more environmentally aware.

I'm with you on that boat, And I could sell it better than most with the food waste recycling.. A complete full circle of life.

Red tractor is not that vehicle. It is not worthwhile intellectual property, it has no market presence and it creates no premium or upsell for retailers nor farmers. It is nothing but an NFU tax on the industry really and creates no value added at any point that I can see.

And I'm also with you on this boat, I don't think RT is the way forward for anyone but there is something out there or will be created and IMO it will come from the retailers/big brand names.

I know you will argue that they do have them out there but IME they are not that refined they actually just follow the herd.

I did my uncles for his milk buyer last week, its all run of the mill stuff.
 

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Red Tractor drops launch of green farming scheme amid anger from farmers

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As reported in Independent


quote: “Red Tractor has confirmed it is dropping plans to launch its green farming assurance standard in April“

read the TFF thread here: https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/gfc-was-to-go-ahead-now-not-going-ahead.405234/
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